RIP Michael Jackson!!?

[Egebedieff]

Yes.  I have not followed his saga particularly.  But I have often wondered if the emotional nature of the allegation has been a rationalization for presuming the "accused" to be guilty until proven innocent.

The topic brings out people's passions.'

[karlhenning]

That is understandable; which is why one should be hesitant to tar and feather anyone where the question of guilt is not properly tried.

[jhar26]

Well, those who are REALLY interested about those allegations should read this book. Not that I expect those who have a negative opinion about Jackson to do that since they prefer to assume that he is guilty based on tabloid gossip..... And don't be misled by the title of this book - this is not a Robert Newman book but it is based on what went on in court. The author went into the trial convinced that MJ was guilty but had to come to the conclusion that there was nothing there.

The most disturbing thing about all of this was the role the media played in the court of public opinion. Sensational accusations and half truths made the headlines. When they were proven to be lies IN COURT there was hardly any mention of it in the media. It was decided that to expose MJ as a pedophile made for a better story than to expose that kid and his family as liars. Several of the main reporters on the trial actually had book deals in case he was found guilty. Doesn't seem like a good formula for unbiased reporting to me. Diane Dimond of Court TV actually had a deal with Sneddon to make photos and footage of Jackson behind bars. After the not guilty verdict came in she was fired for her biased reporting.

And so on, and so on, and so on.......

[karlhenning]

Thanks for bringing that up;  I am going to read that at some point.

[Joe_Campbell]

...

What a nice summary of those who differ in opinion to you.

Food for thought

Of course, he could have been "lying" as well, but MJ did settle out of court on molestation charges for $23 million.

[karlhenning]

Of course, he could have been "lying" as well, but MJ did settle out of court on molestation charges for $23 million.

That doesn't imply guilt, of course.

Even when one is completely in the right, going to court can be an extremely unpleasant ordeal.  We had to go to court twice;  we won once, and bargained a settlement to our advantage in the other occasion.  But even if we are right yet again, we will think very hard before going to court a third time.

[Jay F]

What a nice summary of those who differ in opinion to you.

Food for thought

Of course, he could have been "lying" as well, but MJ did settle out of court on molestation charges for $23 million.

O tempora, o mores. Something negative about MJ on Andrew Breitbart's site.

[Joe Barron]

Yes.  I have not followed his saga particularly.  But I have often wondered if the emotional nature of the allegation has been a rationalization for presuming the "accused" to be guilty until proven innocent.

"Innocent until proven guilty" is literally a legal fiction, not a social obligation. In a criminal case, a jury should assume the defendant is innocent, and it is up to the prosecution to prove its case beyond reasonable doubt. But the prhase has no has no real meaning outside the courtropom. One can  hold to one's opinions despite jury verdicts. OJ was acquitted, and his guilt is widely assumed. And no one "presumes" Lee harvey Osawald is innocent.

Nothing definitive has been said publicly about Michael Jackson's alleged pedophilia, but his behavior atoward children raises legitimate questions.

On the question of his musical legacy, though, I think it wil be much less lasting, inluential or important than the coverage would lead us to believe. I remember when grunge became popular, and at the time, I had the impression, from reading the press, that the movement was in large measure a reaction to the kind of slick, overproduced, tightly  packaged music and videos Jackson was known for. There seemed to be a desire for a return to more straghtforward, gut-wrenching rock. One of Jackson's last albums in the 1990s --- I forget which one --- sold less than one of Nirvana's, and the jdgment seemed to be that the king was dead.   

[Dr. Dread]

I liked it better when he was alive and no one discussed him.

[Joe Barron]

I liked it better when he was alive and no one discussed him.

[Egebedieff]

I am surprised at how many are fascinated by the topic.'

[Harpo]

Nothing definitive has been said publicly about Michael Jackson's alleged pedophilia, but his behavior atoward children raises legitimate questions.

On the question of his musical legacy, though, I think it wil be much less lasting, inluential or important than the coverage would lead us to believe.

I doubt the pedophilia charge. I also doubt that he had anything to do with fathering those kids. Given his horrific childhood, he struck me as a boy/man who never grew up. I was startled when they said he was 50; I had thought of him as much younger.

I was already a "grownup" in the 80s, didn't really pay much attention to his music, though his costumes and dancing were nice. I cringe when they call him the "King of Pop," having grown up listening to so many singers much more worthy of that appellation. Maybe we could qualify it with the "King of Pop of the Early 80s." At most. In the end he was a sad, eerie, clownish man.

[Joe_Campbell]

That doesn't imply guilt, of course.

Even when one is completely in the right, going to court can be an extremely unpleasant ordeal.  We had to go to court twice;  we won once, and bargained a settlement to our advantage in the other occasion.  But even if we are right yet again, we will think very hard before going to court a third time.

Fair comment, Karl. I have never had to deal with legal issues, so perhaps I am not qualified to comment as to how far someone might go to avoid them.

[jhar26]

On the question of his musical legacy, though, I think it wil be much less lasting, inluential or important than the coverage would lead us to believe. I remember when grunge became popular, and at the time, I had the impression, from reading the press, that the movement was in large measure a reaction to the kind of slick, overproduced, tightly  packaged music and videos Jackson was known for. There seemed to be a desire for a return to more straghtforward, gut-wrenching rock. One of Jackson's last albums in the 1990s --- I forget which one --- sold less than one of Nirvana's, and the jdgment seemed to be that the king was dead.   

That was 'Invincible' which was a very poor album but still sold several millions and was a number one album on Billboard. However - keep in mind that Jackson sold almost 750 million records throughout his career (which puts him in to top 5 of all time) - 'only' 100 million plus of those come from 'Thriller', so to say that his reputation only has to do with his stuff from the early 80's isn't exactly true. What is called a flop in the case of MJ would have been called a hit for nearly everyone else. As for the grunge movement - I think that was more a reaction to the 'hair metal' of the 1980's from bands like Bon Jovi and Europe actually. But pop and rock history is a never ending story of movements and counter movements and fashions, and the beginning of something new doesn't always necessarily mean the end of something else.

As for his musical legacy - well, I think he was indeed influential, although his influence wasn't necessarily always a positive one. No need to blame him for that though. You're only responsible for your own thing, not for what others did because of it. Just as you can't blame Led Zeppelin for Uriah Heep you can't blame MJ for, say, Britney Spears or any of the other inferior MTV/dance acts that dominated the airwaves in his wake. But since he's sorta the ultimate figure in MTV-era dance-pop or whatever you want to call it he has earned his place in history. The fact that it's a genre or period that most of us don't particularly care for is irrelevant in terms of the impact he made on pop culture. And let's face it, in comparison with the inferior creations of others in this field he may very well be king.

[Egebedieff]

That was 'Invincible' which was a very poor album but still sold several millions and was a number one album on Billboard. However - keep in mind that Jackson sold almost 750 million records throughout his career (which puts him in to top 5 of all time) - 'only' 100 million plus of those come from 'Thriller', so to say that his reputation only has to do with his stuff from the early 80's isn't exactly true. What is called a flop in the case of MJ would have been called a hit for nearly everyone else. As for the grunge movement - I think that was more a reaction to the 'hair metal' of the 1980's from bands like Bon Jovi and Europe actually. But pop and rock history is a never ending story of movements and counter movements and fashions, and the beginning of something new doesn't always necessarily mean the end of something else.

Even though it can seem like it, and not just pop and rock music. Thinking of what came as a reaction to Baroque music, romanticism, serialism ...

But I think of rap as taking on some of the role of reacting against MJ and pop/r&b hybrid.

I was working in record shops during that time, roughly the last 5-6 years of the dominance of the lp, and it was an interesting time. Punk was in full bloom, but it hardly made a dent in what it was reacting against. We couldn't refill the troughs fast enough with the "product" the rock-bands-with-logos were putting out.

We were the biggest record shop in town --  the only warehouse store in town and the only one that stocked a lot of black music. Following the pattern for blues and jazz, the audience for r&b had become more and more white (almost exclusively white for old Motown/Stax catalog, blues, and jazz). Among the biggest selling records from then were were from black crossover pop acts like Whitney Houston (singing Dolly Parton!) and Smokey Robinson, Stevie Wonder, Earth, Wind, and Fire... not to mention disco. It is surprising to remember that Madonna's first records (dance singles) were stocked in the R&B racks, and customers assumed she was black. Hard to believe.

Rap certainly found a place in reaction to that pop/r&b phenomenon that Jackson was the key player in.

But I'm stumped to identify Michael Jackson's ongoing musical influence. The musical landscape has fractured so much and I don't keep up with popular music like I used to (my 17-year-old seems oblivious to it), so I am not the best to make any claims for whether and where it [Jackson's musical influence is], but I don't see it. I wonder if his death will affect that? '

[Joe_Campbell]

Don't worry. I have a feeling several "documentary" movies are already on the go. That will cement his place in history, or at least the producers' ideas of his place in history.

[Joe Barron]

Well, I guess I should keep my fat mouth shut.

[Joe_Campbell]

Well, I guess I should keep my fat mouth shut.

Why? I enjoyed and thought about your take on the issues.

[The new erato]

Don't worry. I have a feeling several "documentary" movies are already on the go. That will cement his place in history, or at least the producers' ideas of his place in history.

Just wait till the conspiration theorists get really going. You will hardly be able to read internett forums without getting waisthigh in crap.

[Joe Barron]

Just wait till the conspiration theorists get really going. You will hardly be able to read internett forums without getting waisthigh in crap.

Or the idea that Jackson faked his own death and is still alive somewhere, like Elvis.