The usage of "Sir" - politeness or submission?

[Tapio Dmitriyevich]

Hi,

what is the deeper meaning of "Sir", if person A speaks with an unknown person B? I realized, in the Michael Jackson 911 call, the guy always attaches "..., Sir" to sentences.

Is this a term for being polite to an unknown person? In german we have "Du" and "Sie", both mean "You", but you say "Du" to someone you know and "Sie" to someone you do not know. Can "Sir" be seen as the english equivalent for the usage of "Sie"?
Or is it rather an act of submission to authorities? As we (non English/American) may have seen it in the typical militaristic American movies: "Sir, yes Sir!"?

Thanks
Wurst

Edit: Not sure if "submission" is what I mean. I mean Unterwerfung.

[Keemun]

The issue is actually a bit more complicated than it first appears.  In the U.S. there are regional differences in the usage of "Sir" (and the feminine equivalents "Miss" and "Ma'am").  Growing up in the "North" (U.S.) I rarely used these terms, reserving them for strangers (for example, customers).  I never considered addressing someone I knew well as Sir.  But now that I live in the "South" (U.S.) I notice quite a difference.  Sir, Miss and Ma'am are used much more frequently.  One's elders are often  addressed in this manner, even parents or other relatives.  To answer your question, in most situations where "Sir" is used, it is done so out of respect or politeness. 

[owlice]

Is this a term for being polite to an unknown person?

Yes. It is not seen as submissive. (Witness police officers using it for those they are arresting, for example.)

[Tapio Dmitriyevich]

I never considered addressing someone I knew well as Sir.  But, now that I live in the "South" (U.S.) I have noticed quite a difference.  Sir, Miss and Ma'am are used much more frequently.  One's elders are often  addressed in this manner, even relatives.

Thank you. Even relatives? In Germany we had the case, maybe (wild guess) until 1900, when children said "Sie" to their parents. Especially to the father as the hierarchical top of the family.
Such usage of "Sie" probably was last used applied by aristocratic families.

Edit: You work in a shop, talk to a female customer. She's 20, you are 50. Will you say "yes, Ma'am"? The german equivalent is easy. You'll always say "Sie" to adult strangers.

[matti]

Thank you. Even relatives? In Germany we had the case, maybe (wild guess) until 1900, when children said "Sie" to their parents. Especially to the father as the hierarchical top of the family.
Such usage of "Sie" probably was last used applied by aristocratic families.

My grandmother never said "du" to either of her parents, she always said "Sie", or to be exact, the Finnish equivalent "Te". Her parents died in the 1950's and none of them were by any means aristocratic!

I have noticed is that in Germany the polite "Sie" is much more commonly used in contact with unknown (not only elderly) people than in Finland, let alone Sweden!

[karlhenning]

Edit: You work in a shop, talk to a female customer. She's 20, you are 50. Will you say "yes, Ma'am"?

I am apt to address her as "Miss."

[mahler10th]

Quote from: Wurstwasser on Today at 15:09:20
Edit: You work in a shop, talk to a female customer. She's 20, you are 50. Will you say "yes, Ma'am"?

I am apt to address her as "Miss."

How about "Pay up, bitch."

  Perhaps not. 

[Sef]

Having lived the first 3/4 of my life in England and never used the term "Sir" except to teachers at school, I can attest to the rather more complicated usage of the term in the US. In the midwest it seems very similar to back in England, and therefore my non-use of the salutation is not seen as anything strange, although I have heard it occasionally in this region used primarily by black people, or, in my own personal experience by one or two of my co-workers, not necessarily from the South. In fact, I most often observe this term from a young Canadian gentleman, though I cannot confirm or deny whether this is typical.

On TV it becomes more obvious that this is a term of respect and politeness used more frequently in the southern states, particularly the south east. Again, in my experience it is more common (though not restricted to) blacks.

Personally I find it very polite and inwardly smile when I hear it. I have not detected any form of submission at all in the term myself, and certainly don't take that away when used towards me. In fact quite the opposite - I come away with the impression that the user is a very respectable and well brought up person. In that respect I wish people would use it more.

[Tapio Dmitriyevich]

In that respect I wish [...]

Thank you for sharing your experience, Sir I think we can dump my idea of the term being submissive.

[Elgarian]

Thank you for sharing your experience, Sir I think we can dump my idea of the term being submissive.

I like to think of it in the eighteenth century, Johnsonian sense.
"A glass of wine with you, Sir."

[Diletante]

Ah, Wurstwasser, this is an interesting topic!

In Spanish we have tú (du) and usted (Sie), and we also have the, I guess, equivalents to Sir (señor), Miss (señorita) and Ma'am (señora).

When speaking to adult strangers usted is the norm, and one can add señor[(it)a] for more politeness, but it's not "submissive". It actually sounds like you are a well-educated, respectful person.

However, for adults you're acquainted with (teachers, older relatives, etc.), usted is still the norm, but using señor[(it)a] sounds rather ridiculous, stilted, trying too hard, etc. At least in my opinion. Here, it can be seen as submissive. Usually employees say señor(a) to their boss.

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By the way, Wurstwasser, when we (my class) were learning German we would say things to our teacher like:

Frau, darf ich zur Toilette?

Which, of course, startled her and made her explain over and over that you're not supposed to say that.

[Hollywood]

Growing up in Los Angeles I rarely ever heard Sir being used. Not until I was in high school (in my "Social Graces" class) that I learned when and where to use Sir in addressing people in person and in letters (like this was something I was ever going to use out in the real world). 

Anyway it wasn't until I was in the Air Force that I HAD to learn the correct usage of the word Sir. You had to make sure that you addressed only officers as Sir and not the NCOs like Airmen and Sargeants (which I did once out of fear and almost got my head bit off).

Living now for 16 years in Austria I had to learn when to use du or Sie when speaking german. I know when to use Sie but I usually wait until I have been asked by the person I have just met if it would be ok to use du instead. Using du makes my german easier to speak and understand.

[Tapio Dmitriyevich]

By the way, Wurstwasser, when we (my class) were learning German we would say things to our teacher like:

Frau, darf ich zur Toilette?

Which, of course, startled her and made her explain over and over that you're not supposed to say that.

Yes. Frau/Herr has a different meaning than Sir/Ma'am. If you adress someone directly, it can only be used as a prefix for the Surname. "Frau Schmidt, darf ich zur Toilette gehen? or Darf ich zur Toilette gehen, Frau Schmidt?". OK, one exception, which comes close to the use of sir/madam, but über polite, aristocratic, and rarely used: "gnä(' dige) Frau". More commonly used in Vienna, probably

Living now for 16 years in Austria I had to learn when to use du or Sie when speaking german. I know when to use Sie but I usually wait until I have been asked by the person I have just met if it would be ok to use du instead. Using du makes my german easier to speak and understand.

Really? Why? I think the coice of Du or Sie is easy. Anyway. Conventions: The elder offer the Du to younger people, not vice versa. And younger people do not ask older ones for the use of Du.

[DavidRoss]

Is this a term for being polite to an unknown person? In german we have "Du" and "Sie", both mean "You", but you say "Du" to someone you know and "Sie" to someone you do not know. Can "Sir" be seen as the english equivalent for the usage of "Sie"?

Adding my two cents:  Yes, but not only for politeness to strangers.  It is also a matter of respect, that may be used both formally and informally, with friends as well as strangers, similar to but not an exact equivalent of the formal case in German, French, Spanish and other languages (the English equivalent, You, is used almost exclusively these days as the long-term trend to streamlining the language has caused the informal Thee to fall into disuse).

Like so many other elements of our spoken language, its use may reveal more about the social class of the speaker than about any particular relationship between speaker and the one addressed--except in the stylized conventions observed, say, in the military, as already described above.  This may help explain why this more formal term of address is more common in the South and rural West than in the North or on the Pacific Coast, and may even suggest clues to usage of the term, "y'all."

[Dr. Dread]

Yes, Sir, That's my Baby, No, Sir, Don't mean "Maybe"
Yes, Sir, That's my Baby now.
Yes ma'am, we've decided, No ma'am, we won't hide it,
Yes, ma'am, you're invited now.
By the way, By the way,
When we reach the preacher I'll say, (with feeling)
Yes Sir, That's my Baby, No, Sir, don't mean "maybe",
Yes Sir, That's my Baby now.

[oyasumi]

It always sounds weird when I heard "Sir Neville Marriner" and the like. I know it's a nice ceremony over there, but it can seem arbitrary at times, and especially strange listening to American classical radio and hearing that some people get to be sirs, and some don't. If I were a radio host I'd never use it.

[Scarpia]

It always sounds weird when I heard "Sir Neville Marriner" and the like. I know it's a nice ceremony over there, but it can seem arbitrary at times, and especially strange listening to American classical radio and hearing that some people get to be sirs, and some don't. If I were a radio host I'd never use it.

Marriner is "Sir" because he was given an honorary title by the Queen of England.  The same applies to numerous other Sirs and Dames in classical music (like Barbirolli, or Janet Baker, I believe).

That is distinct from the usage of "sir" to address a respected stranger.

[oyasumi]

Marriner is "Sir" because he was given an honorary title by the Queen of England.  The same applies to numerous other Sirs and Dames in classical music (like Barbirolli, or Janet Baker, I believe).

I understand that, and I reject it. We have so many greats of the past who were not given any sort of title, and, for the most part, contemporary non-British greats who will receive no such title. Sounds a little presumptuous to expect everyone to just acknowledge it. Bax don't need no fancy title.

[karlhenning]

I understand that, and I reject it.

Rubbish.

[Scarpia]

Rubbish.

It appears your rejection has been rejected.