Leonard Bernstein conducting

[Bunny]

Me too...and for computer monitors that are not so humongous, a larger pic is much easier to see, and read. It's better too for us old farts with poor eyes. I scan my own covers and produce them. I could make them any size I wanted but I prefer 400x400 because everything is clear on screen. I like cover art, I like to see it big. I've only ever heard Que and Jens complain. What are your thoughts, people? If the majority prefer a smaller pic, I'll be happy to oblige.

Sarge

My monitor isn't very large (15 inches <~37 cm> diagonally) and its resolution is 1680 x 1050 pixels (widescreen).  If I decrease the resolution, I get a 4/3 picture with the sidebands, so I keep the resolution high.  However everything is displayed microscopically,  so the bigger the better for these old eyes to see.

Btw, when I scan my own covers, they are at least 500 x 500 pixels so that I can read all the details without putting reading glasses on over my regular eyeglasses.

[Marc]

I wouldn't be surprised if Bernstein kept on fading.

Mmm, each year I experience at least two or three moments with that same feeling. But then I grab a Lenny disc and I have to admit again that almost in every music he makes something happening. Of course, one can oppose against his sometimes 'overdone' interpretations, and personally I'm not really into his 18th century recordings.
But one of those 'overdone' interpretations happens to be one of my Lenny favourites, i.c. the DG recording of Tchaikovsky's 6th.

I suspect one does best by going for the Mahler DVDs, and American contemporaries.

Yes, his Mahler is very good. That's why I think, even when Lenny will be 'fading', he will never 'disappear'.

BTW, nowadays classical music would profit a lot if there still was a Lenny around. His enthusiasm used to be very appealing, also for non-classical music lovers.

[jlaurson]

Here's a list of essential "B" list as far as I'm concerned.
I should add that I think that Bernstein's reputation as a conductor has very mightily fallen since his death - almost as much as that of his reputation as a composer. [For a conductor who recorded more than any other conductor, save Karajan, there are surprisingly, relatively few recordings that can be recommended without hesitation or disclaimer. I include no recordings of his own works, because I don't think that they merit inclusion on account of the composition(s) rather than the conducting. Well, Candide is, or should be, an exception.

Updated

I list them very roughly in order of (my perceived) importance. In other words: The order in which they came to my mind, just now. 



Bernstein the Educator: Bernstein was a better communicator than he was a conductor, and a better conductor than a composer. That's why these old Bernstein recordings (with the NYPhil in its summer-guise) of the great symphonies paired with Bernstein's talks on them are invaluable. If you have kids -- or are interested in these works yourself -- it's a joy to listen to good-to-very good performances of a very young Bernstein preceded by his insightful, ever entertaining introductions. Beethoven's Third, Dvorak's Ninth, Brahms' Fourth, Tchaikovsky's Sixth and Schumann's Second.


Mahler: The last third of the split-in-three-and-re-released DG Mahler collection might be the essential one: Bernstein's Eighth is not the greatest sounding, but it is one of the more moving accounts. (Esp. so long as Ozawa/BSO/Tanglewood/Philips is not available.) Big and hovering. His Ninth with the RCO is very good (in fact better/less flawed than the fine, hyped Berlin recording). He doesn't sustain the long arch as well as MTT in the last movement (he overstretches at tad), but almost. The Lied von der Erde with King and Dieskau (apparently not to everyone's taste) is a Decca recording and my top choice for that work in the baritone/tenor version.



Mahler II: The second part in that set is just about as good: Bombastic 6th (the way I like it), elegiac 5th (one of the better versions, if awfully wrung for emotion), wavering Seventh.  All three worthy a place in anyone's Mahler collection. For the Seventh I prefer the recording on Sony in some respects... Before Abbado/Berlin came along, this was the best (most mystic, nebulous) Nachtmusic to be had.



Shostakovich: (reviewed as part of "Best of 2005"). This box is no (t much) more expensive than the DSCH 1 & 7 combined - and adds all the Stravinsky (Le Noces is pretty good!) 'for free'. The Seventh remains one of the most thrilling accounts of that work.


Nielsen : Bernstein's 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th Symphony (esp. 2 & 4) are among the finest recordings of those symphonies, despite ever increasing competition and the classic Gould / Martinon. Thankfully, ArkivMusic has made this gem available again.

. .
Sibelius : The Fifth on Sony is a classic. Ought to be part of every serious Sibelius collection. Some of the other Sib. recordings have their merits, too (on Sony moreso than DG), but none reach the undisputable class of this. Alas, the tricky bastards at Sony have taken it off the market, so now it's only available in this box. Well... still worth it. Incidentally, the Second is a very decent recording, too.

Schumann: I can't believe that ArkivMusic hasn't re-issued (rather: made available on-demand) Bernstein's Sony Schumann yet... the overbearing approach of which quite suits the composer. Caveat Emptor: "Hermann", who has listened to these more recently than I, didn't like them at all. Now that could be the nature of Bernstein recordings (love/hate) or it could be that my memory has betrayed me in glossing over these performances all-too kindly. Bernstein's Schumann on DG is pretty good, too... but in my opinion does not supercede Szell, Barenboim, Sawallisch, or Chailly.


American Composers - but not Bernstein's own music! The absence of the latter makes this a really attractive box. The W.Schuman (Sony) isn't part of it, but other than that, this is what Bernstein was best at... Copeland, Bloch, Del Tredici, Foss, Gershwin. If you are interested in those composers, this is nearly mandatory. (His best recording of Ives' unanswered question is also on here!)


Beethoven String Quartets Op 131 & 135 - orchestrated: Bernstein is said to have been most proud of THIS of all of his recordings. Well... I don't know about that... perhaps he meant "convincing the VPO to do this" was his proudest moment. :-) But it is a GREAT sonic experiencing hearing these works played so well so dramatically different. Quite the experience and well worth our time to explore and find out what the maestro though was so wonderful about this.


Bernstein's Beethoven (live) cycle isn't my favorite, but when it was released on CD at that price (<$35), I could not resist. And for the broad-shoulder Beethoven type, this is very good indeed. Not as good as Barenboim's terrific Berlin cycle, but about on the same level as Boehm's Vienna cycle. At least it's not erratic (Rattle). From his Sony days, the Eroica might be singled out.



Bernstein's Liszt has been mentioned... that is certainly true for his Faus Symphony with the BSO (the one on DG). Terrific, indeed.



Bernstein's early Haydn is the full Bernstein experience. But in these cases, not at the music's expense. Thick but with all the wit Haydn requires.



Stravinsky: I think, the earlier we go back in Lennie's Stravinsky, the better. Or perhaps it's the New York Phil that did the trick. In any case, his New York Petroushka is excellent -- but it's coupled with a "very fine" Le Sacre from the LSO. Well, if I want "very fine", I'll go with the "utterly excellent", albeit somewhat tame, new super-sonic triumph that is Mariss Jansons' recording. (#2 on my Best of 2008 list) THIS is the earlier New York recording, also known as the "Wow" Rite of the Spring (because that was to have been Stravinsky's only response after he first heard it.) [Here's the original cover.]


Brahms curiosita: No, I don't think this is a good b-minor concerto. Neither did Bernstein, coincidently, which is why he distanced himself from the work before the concert. It was broadcast on radio - and the broadcast tapes (plus an interview with Gould) are what you have here. There are people who think it's just a wonderful performance (in truth, it's not the slowest: Zimerman with - who wouldda thunk: Bernstein - is even slower). I think it's worth having just for the speech.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Ah, yes, surely a buzzing thread at GMG must be proof of his reputation as a conductor. [You've got thread on everything, including on what you guys are eating, currently, on this forum, for crying out loud. ]

Well, my friend, your patronizing attitude doesn't help things. Those "eating" threads and such are in some cases years old. This Bernstein thread is freshly minted and already buzzing. Threads of no interest generate almost no activity on this board. Stick around awhile and you'll get a feel for what interests who on this board.

That he is being re-issued heavily on DVD goes to show that the person Bernstein exuded lots of magic. I argue: More than his conducting per se. That's why I have that Bruckner 9th from Vienna on DVD but I'd never care to own it on CD.

I don't understand this. If the music isn't good why would you bother owning a DVD at all? Just watching a conductor can't be all that gratifying - especially if the music isn't good.

And seeing how he was once the most popular conductor next to Karajan -- the "other" Ueber-Maestro -- the re-issues around his 90th Birthday and perhaps in two years on his 20th death anniversary should not be surprising. If anything, it's surprising how little is being done, compared to Karajan. Perhaps we'll see in 10 years... but I wonder if anyone will bother with so many "complete" editions as they did with HvK.

That's a can of worms best left unopened. There's not a single classical musician - alive or dead - that need suffer in comparison to the glut of Karajan recordings/DVDs.

In any case, I don't say that he was a bad conductor -- merely that he was (vastly) overrated, thanks to the magnetism of his personality, which was enormous. And yes, he's still rather popular... but nothing compared to his life-time. Other famous conductors, however, got only MORE famous and revered after their death.

You seem to be forgetting that talent is what carries a classical musician, not personality. No classical musician gets very far if there isn't something of substance to back up all that "personality".

And I'd like to see what evidence you have to prove that Bernstein was "all personality" and "no substance". 

As for myself I've never seen Bernstein live, nor do I own any of his DVDs. I base my enthusiasm on the CDs I have which, of course, contain no visual aids. I let the music speak for itself.

Does that make more - perhaps even consensus-worthy - sense?

Should it make more sense to me? You haven't made anywhere near a case for your belief in Bernstein's "overrated" status. Sorry.

(Oh, and despite all this: Merry Christmas! )

[drogulus]

     I have these favorites, where I think Bernstein excels:

     Barber

     Violin Concerto Op. 14 - Bernstein NYPO  _0:)

     Adagio for Strings - Bernstein NYPO

     Copland

     Symphony for Organ and Orchestra - Bernstein NYPO

     Diamond

     Symphony No. 4 - Bernstein NYPO  _0:)

     Harris

     Symphony No. 3 ('61) - Bernstein NYPO  _{0:) 0:)}

     Hindemith

     Concert Music for Strings and Brass - Bernstein NYPO

     Symphonic Metamorphoses - Bernstein NYPO

     Symphony in Eb - Bernstein NYPO  _{0:) 0:)}

     Schuman

     Symphony No. 3 ('60) - Bernstein NYPO

     Symphony No. 8 - Bernstein NYPO  _{0:) 0:) 0:)}

     Stravinsky

     The Firebird Suite (1919) - Bernstein NYPO

     Everything here is excellent and the angels just mean particularly noteworthy. 

     

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Patronizing? I was being joking/coy... because I had hoped you were, too. You weren't joking?

Ah, this blasted internet! Hard to make heads or tails sometimes of a person's intentions.

But, anyway, no I wasn't joking. And neither am I trying to put too fine a point on all this. All I wanted to know is how you arrived at the conclusion that Bernstein's popularity had waned since his death. I had hoped I was being straightforward.

I pointed out the flood of Bernstein reissues/new releases - plus the fact this thread is very active - all of which points to a very healthy interest in Bernstein. All this in an effort to draw some evidence out of you. But so far nothing you've said makes a case for your conclusions.

You don't understand that perception of music can differ in accordance with whether there is a visual (and story-) element or not? Seeing the old Lennie in his last performances with the VPO pouring his all into this Bruckner 9th is so touching, that the interpretation makes a lot more sense... it paves the way for my generosity of spirit, my "principle of charity" is activated.

Well, that's interesting but it really isn't my point. I'm looking for something of substance which will back up your claim that Bernstein's popularity has waned and that he is an overrated conductor.

And a Merry Christmas to you. Not despite anything, even. 

(It turned out a most Merry Christmas for me, too, when the package that I suspected to contain a small Panettone brought forth this:


Karl Richter - 75 Cantatas - Archiv

Looks nice. Boxes are always the niftiest!

[Henritus]

I think this definitely deserves to be mentioned. (I prefer this to the later recording for DG)

[Daverz]

I think this definitely deserves to be mentioned. (I prefer this to the later recording for DG)

I love that recording.  Now we're getting into recordings of Bernstein works not conducted by Bernstein himself.

[karlhenning]

     I have these favorites, where I think Bernstein excels:

[ snip ]

     Hindemith

     Concert Music for Strings and Brass - Bernstein NYPO

     Symphonic Metamorphoses - Bernstein NYPO

     Symphony in Eb - Bernstein NYPO  _{0:) 0:)}

     Schuman

     Symphony No. 3 ('60) - Bernstein NYPO

     Symphony No. 8 - Bernstein NYPO  _{0:) 0:) 0:)}

These are good indeed!

[knight66]

I also am a bit puzzled as to how we estimate that Bernstein's stock has fallen. When I go to large retail outlets, there seem to be a lot of his recordings around. Bohm's reputation went through a lacuna right from when he died until a couple of years ago, since when his work seems to have been written about frequently with appreciation and a number of his less obvious recordings are dribbling out.

I have hardly any Bernstein discs, Mahler 2 on DVD, I rate it highly, the DGG Carmen which I suggest folk avoid, a Missa Solemnis that is first rate and the one I most often spin....



Mike

[knight66]

As an aside, here I quote my post from the thread on musicancs being nasty to one another.

"Here is Lebrecht trying to knock down a point made by someone who took issue with his view of the matter.

"NL to Rudolf Grainger: There are professional conductors, too, who struggle to conduct. The instance that springs to mind is Serge Koussevitsky, who was unable to find a beat for The Rite of Spring until Nicolas Slominsky wrote the score out for him without bar-lines. Leonard Bernstein, Slonimsky told me, needed to use the same bar-less score."

I find it hard to believe that Bernstein had to use a Janet and John score. I don't find it hard to believe Lebrecht would adopt this dubious stance in bolstering his friend and his opinion."

Mike

[DarkAngel]

Bernstein will almost certainly be most remembered for his Mahler work..........

  +    + 

I much prefer the great early Sony/NYPO Malhler set to the later slower 1980s DG remakes, however the Sony Mahler 5th is somewhat weak and can be easily supplemented by the better DG/VPO 5th.........best to get DG panorama set which also includes Mahler 1st.

The Sony 9th is very good but the live DG/BPO 9th is very special and should also supplement the Sony set, very rare combination of BPO/Bernstein.
Karajan was very impressed since he decided to later release a very good live Mahler 9th also
Interesting to see how Bernstein slowed down his Mahler 9th over time:
NYPO/Sony - 79
BPO/DG  - 82
RCO/DG - 89

I am huge Bernstein fan but usually don't like his slower 1980's material for DG, almost always prefer his Sony/NYPO versions from 1960/70s with a few exceptions

I don't think Bernstein's legacy has diminished at all, seems even more impressive as time goes on, but what has changed today is more focus on HIP style performance which for now at least gets the most attention

[DarkAngel]

  + 

I think both of these are very fine Beethoven piano concerto performances with Serkin and Zimerman, Bernstein only conducts 3,4,5 with Zimerman.........Zimerman later finished set with concertos 1,2 conducted from piano.

There is also a unique Glenn Gould/Sony set where Bernstein conducts 2,3,4 Stokowski conducts 5 and Golschmann conducts 1.
I enjoy this set very much but more for Gould fans and not a general strong recommendation........

[Renfield]

Karajan was very impressed since he decided to later release a very good live Mahler 9th also

That is actually incorrect: the live Bernstein 9th was only released after Bernstein's death, as far as I know, and thus quite a few years after Karajan's live version - not to mention after Karajan's own death, as well!

Although it is a fascinating, and in many ways outstanding performance.

[DarkAngel]

That is actually incorrect: the live Bernstein 9th was only released after Bernstein's death, as far as I know, and thus quite a few years after Karajan's live version - not to mention after Karajan's own death, as well!

Although it is a fascinating, and in many ways outstanding performance.

Quite true that the 1979 live Bernstein/BPO/DG 9th was not released to public till 1992, but Karajan surely was aware of it and read print media reviews.

Whatever the motivation for Karajan/DG to release a 1982 live Mahler 9th I am thankful since I prefer that version to the 1979 DG studio version 

[Renfield]

Quite true that the 1979 live Bernstein/BPO/DG 9th was not released to public till 1992, but Karajan surely was aware of it and read print media reviews.

Whatever the motivation for Karajan/DG to release a 1982 live Mahler 9th I am thankful since I prefer that version to the 1979 DG studio version 

Certainly, Karajan knew about it.

And I think most of us are glad for that 1982 9th!

[Renfield]

Both, in any case, are better than Bernstein's Berlin 9th.  (Although it's nonetheless a fascinating document I am glad to have.) The studio recording comes with those absolutely divine Rueckert Lieder with Ludwig... and those would be worth the disc, even if the 9th was a dud.

The Rückert-Lieder are also coupled with Karajan's Mahler 6th, incidentally. But let me not derail this thread towards The Karajan Side.

[vandermolen]

Daverz

You are not the only one to think highly of Bernstein's Vaughan Williams' recordings. Symphony No 4 is especially good. A pity he did not record more Vaughan Williams.

[Anne]

Don't forget Bernstein's recording of the "Sea Interludes" from Britten's Peter Grimes.  I think it is coupled with one of Beethoven's symphonies.  It was also Bernstein's last recording.

If the Interludes above are compared to those in the opera w/Jon Vickers as Peter Grimes, it is an eye-opener.

  Everyone should listen to both just to appreciate how exellent Bernstein's recording is.  It would be a wonderful teaching example showing students the difference between an ordinary rendition of a work, and a great one.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Don't forget Bernstein's recording of the "Sea Interludes" from Britten's Peter Grimes.  I think it is coupled with one of Beethoven's symphonies.  It was also Bernstein's last recording.

It is coupled with the 7th, with the BSO. One of Bernstein's worst recordings. The "Four Sea Interludes" are okay, but the B7 is dreadful, painfully slow even by Lenny's late standards.