The Classical Chat Thread

[Opus106]

Well I've figured out what bugs me-- it's not the music, it's the performance.  It's just too fast.  You can't follow the harmony, and there is no sense of melody, just clanging and banging as fast as possible.  That is also what made the solo keyboard works so hard for me-- just crappy performances.  I've listened to (Paulb style) clips on Müchinger, and it sounded much, much, much, much better.  It actually sounded like Bach.

Another factor that may have had an (adverse) effect is instrumentation. Since historians are not clear on exactly which instruments (apart from the flute, possibly) Bach specified for the work, the musicians take an artistic decision on the issue. For example, I noticed that the Koopman recording has two versions of Ra6, one after the other bringing the work to a close, while the Harnoncourt recording has just one version, and that on a single harpsichord.

A version I've enjoyed watching on YouTube (DVD Rip) is from the Kuijken ensemble. (Go here and search for '1079'.) Just four members play the work, and the instruments are quite clearly heard. I haven't heard Koopman to tell whether this is faster or not, but the Kuijkens' pace seem quite relaxed to me.

[karlhenning]

One version which I enjoy (but which may be too specific, in its own ways, for general approbation) is Igor Markevich's 'deployment' of Das musikalisches Opfer.

[DavidW]

One version which I enjoy (but which may be too specific, in its own ways, for general approbation) is Igor Markevich's 'deployment' of Das musikalisches Opfer.

Oh nice, I'll sample it Paulb style this evening.

[George]

Clips do serve a good purpose, for those who know how to use the tool.

QFT

[DavidW]

Well Navneeth that youtube concert was swell.  And I've returned to give Koopman a fresh listen and you know what?  I like it now.  Sometimes I think you just have to give your brain a few days to mull it over.

[Opus106]

Well Navneeth that youtube concert was swell.  And I've returned to give Koopman a fresh listen and you know what?  I like it now.  Sometimes I think you just have to give your brain a few days to mull it over.

I'm glad that turned out well, David.

[Opus106]

Did Brahms borrow something from E minor fugue, BWV 855, for the last movement of his fourth symphony? I always found those fleeting moments in the fugue familiar but only now did I recognise the pattern.

First the fugue in E minor. It is the first three seconds that is of interest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/kKdqwMTISos

Now, to Brahms. 2:00-2:03.

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/WZGWB93-mmI

[karlhenning]

Well Navneeth that youtube concert was swell.  And I've returned to give Koopman a fresh listen and you know what?  I like it now.  Sometimes I think you just have to give your brain a few days to mull it over.

Sometimes, your brain just needs . . . space.

[DavidW]

Sometimes, your brain just needs . . . space.

Yup.

[The new erato]

Sometimes, your brain just needs . . . space.

Thinking is underrated.

[Lethevich]

Why were so many of the most popular conductors of the 20th century Hungarian?

Szell, Solti, Ormandy, Reiner, Doráti...

I mean, any big-ish European country would produce a decent amount of talent, but was there something in the water over there or something?

[Opus106]

Why were so many of the most popular conductors of the 20th century Hungarian?

Szell, Solti, Ormandy, Reiner, Doráti...

I mean, any big-ish European country would produce a decent amount of talent, but was there something in the water over there or something?

Do you really think so? I mean, Germany, Austria and France, for instance, have produced their fair share of famous conductors in the last century. Perhaps, you could ask why it was mostly Hungarian conductors who were responsible in making many of America's orchestras some of the best in the world?

A question in a similar vein to which I have not yet found an answer: the HIPsters, at least the pioneers, and many today certainly, were either Dutch or English. Why?

[Lethevich]

I suppose the popularity I mean stems from their recorded legacies, many of which were indeed with American orchestras.

[Brian]

Why were so many of the most popular conductors of the 20th century Hungarian?

Szell, Solti, Ormandy, Reiner, Doráti...

I mean, any big-ish European country would produce a decent amount of talent, but was there something in the water over there or something?

I've often wondered that myself. Yeah, as Op 106 points out, all countries produced conductors, but something about Hungary ... Fricsay, too, and Arthur Nikisch, who made the first (?) Beethoven's Fifth recording, and Christoph von Dohnanyi barely missed the cut by being "of Hungarian descent." Crazy amount of talent in the conducting department. Especially, as you point out, with American orchestras (Nikisch, by the way, took the LSO on its first tour of America...or indeed, the first American tour of any big European orchestra)

[The new erato]

and Kertez, and a couple of Fischers...

[Opus106]

And wasn't it reported that Bernstein actually came from Hungary? As nonsensical as that may sound, I remember reading something to that effect in this forum.

[Scarpia]

And wasn't it reported that Bernstein actually came from Hungary? As nonsensical as that may sound, I remember reading something to that effect in this forum.

It is not true.  Bernstein was born in the US of parents who came from the Ukraine.

[karlhenning]

It is not true.  Bernstein was born in the US of parents who came from the Ukraine.

In Lowell, Mass, if memory serve.

[Sergeant Rock]

Why were so many of the most popular conductors of the 20th century Hungarian?
Szell, Solti, Ormandy, Reiner, Doráti...

and Kertez

Like the five conductors Lethe names, István Kertész almost led a major American orchestra too. After Szell died, he was a leading candidate to be Cleveland's next Music Director. He was the orchestra members overwhelming choice. When they voted,  Kertész received 76 votes, Abbado 13 , Frübeck de Burgos 4, Barenboim 3, Maazel 2, Leinsdorf and Haitink 0. The orchestra's board ignored the musicans and hired Maazel, of course, but Kertész had been in  the running for awhile.

Sarge

[knight66]

That appointment was 1972, most of that list are still active: long careers. Kertész died young, Leinsdorf was already elderly by 1972. I was in a performance of his in 76 and he was pretty infirm in terms of his grasp on the performers. Baremboim I was in chorus for in 76, his potential was clear, but he was no world beater at that point. Watching him grow and grow has been one of life's great musical pleasures.

Mike