Krystian Zimerman is a monster.

[Maciek]

Is Zimerman a musician then? (He conducts, he is a great jazz improviser I'm told - not that I've heard him - he tunes pianos and gives lectures on that subject, he scuba dives - presumably humming while doing so - etc. etc. etc.)

[Rabin_Fan]

I don't know, when people say "virtuoso", the first 3 living musicians pops up in my head are Arcadi Volodos, Lang Lang and Itzhak Perlman.

Volodos & Perlman are musicians. Lang Lang is crap and a joke (as well as a pompous big-headed and pig-headed "musician" - "he thinks he is one").

[Novi]

Is Zimerman a musician then? (He conducts, he is a great jazz improviser I'm told - not that I've heard him - he tunes pianos and gives lectures on that subject, he scuba dives - presumably humming while doing so - etc. etc. etc.)

No, he's a monster apparently .

Is there a generally accepted definition of virtuosity? Or is it one of those vague and highly debated terms?

I've always understood it to mean a player with an extraordinary technical ability that is specific to the instrument.

Names that come to mind are Aimard and Hamelin.

[Josquin des Prez]

Is there a generally accepted definition of virtuosity? Or is it one of those vague and highly debated terms?

I've always understood it to mean a player with an extraordinary technical ability that is specific to the instrument.

Names that come to mind are Aimard and Hamelin.

And you think Zimerman doesn't qualify?

[Novi]

And you think Zimerman doesn't qualify?

I don't know his playing to judge. I only have his Schumann and Grieg PCs recording but I haven't listened to that for quite a while. I'll go look for it .

[mahlertitan]

Volodos & Perlman are musicians. Lang Lang is crap and a joke (as well as a pompous big-headed and pig-headed "musician" - "he thinks he is one").

you just offended 1.3 billion people there.

[Bunny]

you just offended 1.3 billion people there.

I hope some of those 1.3 billion people have some discernment when it comes to musical talent.  Lang Lang has been disappointing, to say the least.  He's young, though, and he may yet grow into his technical mastery.  I'm not writing him off completely, yet. 

[Bunny]

Musicians? I admit I don't know Volodos, but Lang Lang and Perlman or no musicians! Good at their chosen instrument, period. Mikhail Pletnev is a Musician! Pianist. Conductor. Arranger. Composer. All in the one person of a musician.

Way too harsh!  I don't think you have listened very extensively to Perlman if you can make that statement.  Perlman can become overbearing when given too much rein, and frequently exploits the popular taste for schmaltz in order to reap a fat paycheck, but he also can produce phenomenal music; he's an amazing fiddler.  It's easy to knock someone when they have such blindingly brilliant technique; Perlman also has the smarts to go with it.  Compare his work to A-S Mutter's, for instance, and there's little to knock.  His Beethoven Sonatas beat hers to hell and his tone beats Kremer's by a long shot.

And if you want to find comparisons for Pletnev, then look no further than Barenboim who does everything Pletnev does as well or better. 

It's way too easy to be a detractor.

[mahlertitan]

I hope some of those 1.3 billion people have some discernment when it comes to musical talent.  Lang Lang has been disappointing, to say the least.  He's young, though, and he may yet grow into his technical mastery.  I'm not writing him off completely, yet. 

say, you are a Chinese boy, who worships classical music from an early age, it is a fact that all the great virtuosos in the world are all westerners... you want to find an idol, someone you can identify with, and there is Lang Lang, what's wrong with that?

You say he is bad, i'm not gonna argue with you; but he is the only exciting person out of China, so, grade him on a curve please!! (in comparison to other Chinese pianists/musicians, as opposed to westerners)

[Josquin des Prez]

and there is Lang Lang

I seriously doubt that's all China has to offer in terms of virtuosos...

[Steve]

I seriously doubt that's all China has to offer in terms of virtuosos...

Of course their are probably others, but not many. None with the reputation of the greatest Western Musicians.

[Bunny]

say, you are a Chinese boy, who worships classical music from an early age, it is a fact that all the great virtuosos in the world are all westerners... you want to find an idol, someone you can identify with, and there is Lang Lang, what's wrong with that?

You say he is bad, i'm not gonna argue with you; but he is the only exciting person out of China, so, grade him on a curve please!! (in comparison to other Chinese pianists/musicians, as opposed to westerners)

Don't forget Yo-Yo Ma. 

China doesn't have a long tradition in Western classical music, but that's changing.  I'll bet right now there are any  number of young students just waiting to make their entrance on the world stage.  With so many people there will be more than enough Chinese virtuosos who also have deeper insight into the music coming along.  Just be patient.  Who knows, perhaps Lang Lang too will mature and his interpretation s will gain depth.  Only consider those such Pogorelich and Kissin who come from the culture and have been such big disappointments as they have aged.  Sometimes it has nothing to do with the nationality, the culture, or any external factor and merely has to do with the brain of the musician.  You shouldn't take criticism of Lang Lang personally, and you shouldn't look for heroes purely on the basis of national or ethnic identity.  That is so limiting.  The best thing about music is that ethnic and national identities dissolve in the face of the pure beauty of the sound.  Look for great musicians regardless of nationality, religion, and even sex to emulate and you cannot go wrong.

[Steve]

Don't forget Yo-Yo Ma. 

China doesn't have a long tradition in Western classical music, but that's changing.  I'll bet right now there are any  number of young students just waiting to make their entrance on the world stage.  With so many people there will be more than enough Chinese virtuosos who also have deeper insight into the music coming along.  Just be patient.  Who knows, perhaps Lang Lang too will mature and his interpretation s will gain depth.  Only consider those such Pogorelich and Kissin who come from the culture and have been such big disappointments as they have aged.  Sometimes it has nothing to do with the nationality, the culture, or any external factor and merely has to do with the brain of the musician.  You shouldn't take criticism of Lang Lang personally, and you shouldn't look for heroes purely on the basis of national or ethnic identity.  That is so limiting.  The best thing about music is that ethnic and national identities dissolve in the face of the pure beauty of the sound.  Look for great musicians regardless of nationality, religion, and even sex to emulate and you cannot go wrong.

I don't think people on this forum were taking the criticism personally, as I would imagine, few of M. Lang's companions are on this forum. As far as I know, MahlerTitan is not a poor Chinese boy recently immigrated to America. The point of the post was that while Lang might not be an incredible virtuoso, his sucess as a Chinese man in Classical music might be a source of inspiration for other Chinese-Americans, paricuarily youths, who don't see a great deal of Chinese classical musicans featured in American/European orchestral halls. It's a valid point.

[mahlertitan]

yeah, whole bunch of japanese/Koreans, but no Chinese, i was like WTF?

[BachQ]

yeah, whole bunch of japanese/Koreans, but no Chinese, i was like WTF?

Well ....... now there's a tactful summary .........

[Bunny]

I don't people on this forum were taking the criticism personally, as I would imagine, few of M. Lang's companions are on this forum. As far as I know, MahlerTitan is not a poor Chinese boy recently immigrated to America. The point of the post was that while Lang might not be an incredible virtuoso, his sucess as a Chinese man in Classical music might be a source of inspiration for other Chinese-Americans, paricuarily youths, who don't see a great deal of Chinese classical musicans featured in American/European orchestral halls. It's a valid point.

Edit please!  I'm sure you have a point somewhere.  It would be nice if the post were a little more coherent.  And who is M. Lang?

[mahlertitan]

Well ....... now there's a tactful summary .........

it's a fact.

[Steve]

Edit please!  I'm sure you have a point somewhere.  It would be nice if the post were a little more coherent.  And who is M. Lang?

What? Who is M. Lang? Obviously, I was referring to Lang Lang. As to my post, I've inserted the word 'think' into the first sentence. I don't see a problem with it now.

[mahlertitan]

Edit please!  I'm sure you have a point somewhere.  It would be nice if the post were a little more coherent.  And who is M. Lang?

I'll take a wild guess that M. Lang is none other than the mediocre pianist Lang Lang.

[Rabin_Fan]

you just offended 1.3 billion people there.

So what? I am Malaysian Chinese and if I believe that a musician is crappy, I say so. Read my review of his Tch PC 1 below:-
http://www.musicandcdreview.com/Phila-Eschen.htm