Author Topic: Greatest Composer Since the Time of Beethoven, sorry but it's true.  (Read 19366 times)

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Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Greatest Composer Since the Time of Beethoven, sorry but it's true.
« Reply #140 on: August 26, 2016, 06:12:54 PM »
Just like Schoenberg, I will always be completely obvious oblivious to why people have the negative reactions they do.

Because they don't like the music. They don't respond to it. I mean it happens and it shouldn't be any sweat off your back if someone doesn't like the same composers you like. Let's face it: Schoenberg is a hard sell. He really is, but, over time, I believe people can appreciate him as he had a deep reverence for classical's past and, in many cases, tried to uphold some of those traditions in his own music. If someone doesn't enjoy him, well that should be fine. Stockhausen is an even harder sell because of sheer amount of dissonance in his music and what appears to be complete disorganization and random sounds. I don't think much of Stockhausen's music, but it should come as no surprise to you if people are generally negative towards his music (and Schoenberg's for that matter).
"Works of art create rules; rules do not create works of art." - Claude Debussy

Offline Jo498

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Re: Greatest Composer Since the Time of Beethoven, sorry but it's true.
« Reply #141 on: August 26, 2016, 11:17:35 PM »
Schönberg is hardly "of my time". He died more than 20 years before I was born and most of his more famous pieces were composed before either of my parents were born. And I am in my forties...

I don't know a lot of Stockhausen but I find it hard to deny that it is obviously music. It might be strange, unfamiliar music and it might sound like "random notes" but it does not sound like "random noise". I think it is far more clearly distinguishable as music in the normal sense than quite a mit of 20th century visual art is identifiable as art in the common sense. (This is nothing against such art but while one might reasonably think of Duchamps' pissoir as  clever pun? or of some paintings "every child could do that", nobody would ever think every child could do Gesang der Jünglinge or Gruppen.
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Offline James

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Re: Greatest Composer Since the Time of Beethoven, sorry but it's true.
« Reply #142 on: August 27, 2016, 03:46:36 AM »
I don't know a lot of Stockhausen but I find it hard to deny that it is obviously music.

It certainly is and he was in complete control of what he doing, right down to performance practice, performance space and the projection of the music. Totally aware. Huge ears .. and he could sing it back to his musicians during rehearsal. The only distinct part of his career where he handed over that control was when he was briefly dabbling in totally free improvisation with a hand-picked touring electroacoustic ensemble, with nothing written or rehearsed, but he was expecting music. He had to explore this avenue, learned, then moved on quickly after not being too thrilled with the results (From the 7 Days).
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Greatest Composer Since the Time of Beethoven, sorry but it's true.
« Reply #143 on: August 27, 2016, 03:50:12 AM »
Because they don't like the music. They don't respond to it. I mean it happens and it shouldn't be any sweat off your back if someone doesn't like the same composers you like. Let's face it: Schoenberg is a hard sell.

Well, but they do respond, many of them, the response being "Why can't this be like the nice music I prefer?"

And on the last point:  no, Schoenberg is not absolutely a hard sell.  Many of us who like Schoenberg, have liked his music from the very first note;  no hard sell there, we were the softest of touches.
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Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Greatest Composer Since the Time of Beethoven, sorry but it's true.
« Reply #144 on: August 27, 2016, 04:03:34 AM »
Well, but they do respond, many of them, the response being "Why can't this be like the nice music I prefer?"

And on the last point:  no, Schoenberg is not absolutely a hard sell.  Many of us who like Schoenberg, have liked his music from the very first note;  no hard sell there, we were the softest of touches.

I like Schoenberg a lot as well and I suppose I'm speaking more from personal experience than anything. Of course, I loved works like Verklarte Nacht and Pelleas und Melisande right away, but his atonal music took some time for me to process.
"Works of art create rules; rules do not create works of art." - Claude Debussy

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Greatest Composer Since the Time of Beethoven, sorry but it's true.
« Reply #145 on: August 27, 2016, 04:11:05 AM »
Well, we all do speak from personal experience, of course  8)
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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Offline James

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Re: Greatest Composer Since the Time of Beethoven, sorry but it's true.
« Reply #146 on: August 27, 2016, 04:15:48 AM »
I actually think during his life, Stockhausen & his work has been better treated and more widely loved than what happened to the 2nd Viennese School, especially Schoenberg. Stockhausen's music has had a further reach and influence, well outside the classical world.
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Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Greatest Composer Since the Time of Beethoven, sorry but it's true.
« Reply #147 on: August 27, 2016, 04:27:49 AM »
Well, we all do speak from personal experience, of course  8)

Absolutely. :)
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Greatest Composer Since the Time of Beethoven, sorry but it's true.
« Reply #148 on: August 27, 2016, 04:28:31 AM »
I like Schoenberg a lot as well and I suppose I'm speaking more from personal experience than anything. Of course, I loved works like Verklarte Nacht and Pelleas und Melisande right away, but his atonal music took some time for me to process.

And there is nothing wrong, either, with taking time to process.  It may seem on the surface contradictory . . . as I say, Schoenberg (heck, even the Berg Kammerkonzert) hit me just right, the very first time I listened;  yet, I think it a nearly moral error, to demand that music have something to say to us, in a way that we can understand it, right now.

It is, I suppose, in fact an uneven dialogue, and the artist has, at the last, the dominant voice in the conversation.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Greatest Composer Since the Time of Beethoven, sorry but it's true.
« Reply #149 on: August 27, 2016, 04:33:08 AM »
And there is nothing wrong, either, with taking time to process.  It may seem on the surface contradictory . . . as I say, Schoenberg (heck, even the Berg Kammerkonzert) hit me just right, the very first time I listened;  yet, I think it a nearly moral error, to demand that music have something to say to us, in a way that we can understand it, right now.

It is, I suppose, in fact an uneven dialogue, and the artist has, at the last, the dominant voice in the conversation.

Yes, but I can say that there was something in that music that had me intrigued, so if I'm allured by the sound of the music, then, ultimately, I'm inclined to keep listening. This said, I love Schoenberg's 'free atonal' period with his Five Pieces for Orchestra being one of the most extraordinary works I've heard and a dear favorite of mine.
"Works of art create rules; rules do not create works of art." - Claude Debussy

Offline Scion7

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Re: Greatest Composer Since the Time of Beethoven, sorry but it's true.
« Reply #150 on: April 10, 2021, 11:45:12 PM »
LOL!  Noise to play at street repairs, or getting one's motorcar new tires.  I'm assuming the OP was having a bit of a joke.
The Germans, who make doctrines out of everything, deal with music learnedly; the Italians, being voluptuous, seek in it lively, though fleeting, sensations; the French, more vain than perceptive, manage to speak of it wittily; and the English pay for it . . . - Stendhal

Offline steve ridgway

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Re: Greatest Composer Since the Time of Beethoven, sorry but it's true.
« Reply #151 on: April 11, 2021, 05:16:11 AM »
I don’t know about Stockhausen’s “greatness”, just enjoy some of his stuff for its experimental ideas and innovation, bearing in mind the times when it was produced.