Bach Johannes-Passion / St. John Passion

Started by Bogey, August 01, 2009, 06:08:26 AM

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Antoine Marchand

#100
Quote from: Marc on May 29, 2011, 02:14:45 PM
Holly Friday?

http://www.facebook.com/people/Holly-Friday/184805707

Tell me more .... ;D

;D :D ;D

I was counting my different versions of the Johannes-Passion and I found these: Herreweghe I & II, Kuijken (I imagine we will have an OVPP version soon), Fasolis, Veldhoven, Parrott, Pierlot, Gardiner I, Richter, Münchinger, Higginbottom, Koopman, Max, van der Meel, Suzuki, Cleobury, Haller & finally Rilling (not my favorite, but quite better than his Matthäus). Additionally, these days is crossing the ocean a version by Ludwig Güttler (Berlin Classics). I think I will stop for some time, but Brüggen I & II and Gardiner II are hard to resist. :)

P.S.: I forgot the recording on DVD directed by Harnoncourt. A favorite of mine. I suppose I enjoyed so much that DVD that I never thought to buy a CD version by him.



;D

Antoine Marchand

Previously I mentioned Maria Keohane, so I thought it would be interesting to share this video:

http://www.youtube.com/v/TBuhOzBuS84

:)




Que

#102
Quote from: Antonio Marchand on May 29, 2011, 02:48:26 PM
;D :D ;D

I was counting my different versions of the Johannes-Passion and I found these: Herreweghe I & II, Kuijken (I imagine we will have an OVPP version soon), Fasolis, Veldhoven, Parrott, Pierlot, Gardiner I, Richter, Münchinger, Higginbottom, Koopman, Max, van der Meel, Suzuki, Cleobury, Haller & finally Rilling (not my favorite, but quite better than his Matthäus). Additionally, these days is crossing the ocean a version by Ludwig Güttler (Berlin Classics). I think I will stop for some time, but Brüggen I & II and Gardiner II are hard to resist. :)

P.S.: I forgot the recording on DVD directed by Harnoncourt. A favorite of mine. I suppose I enjoyed so much that DVD that I never thought to buy a CD version by him.



;D

An impressive line up! :) What about the old Harnoncourt recording?



Q

Marc

Quote from: Antonio Marchand on May 29, 2011, 03:56:44 PM
Previously I mentioned Maria Keohane, so I thought it would be interesting to share this video:
[clip]
:)

With Van Veldhoven and his Netherlands Bach Society, I presume.
Indeed a beautiful performance. Thanks for sharing!

Antoine Marchand

Quote from: ~ Que ~ on May 29, 2011, 08:54:05 PM
An impressive line up! :) What about the old Harnoncourt recording?



Q

You're right, I consider that Harnoncourt the only really essential recording of the Johannes-Passion lacking among my discs. But I suppose I will add it at some point, meanwhile I have the DVD from the eighties.  :)

Antoine Marchand

Quote from: Marc on May 30, 2011, 01:10:03 AM
With Van Veldhoven and his Netherlands Bach Society, I presume.
Indeed a beautiful performance. Thanks for sharing!

Do you have the Magnificat by the Ricercar Consort, Marc? I wanted to upload some samples of the extra-DVD included there, but I need some time. Maria Keohane is a very good singer and also has beautiful corporal expression.

premont

Quote from: Antonio Marchand on May 29, 2011, 02:48:26 PM

I was counting my different versions of the Johannes-Passion and I found these: Herreweghe I & II, Kuijken (I imagine we will have an OVPP version soon), Fasolis, Veldhoven, Parrott, Pierlot, Gardiner I, Richter, Münchinger, Higginbottom, Koopman, Max, van der Meel, Suzuki, Cleobury, Haller & finally Rilling (not my favorite, but quite better than his Matthäus). Additionally, these days is crossing the ocean a version by Ludwig Güttler (Berlin Classics). I think I will stop for some time, but Brüggen I & II and Gardiner II are hard to resist. :)


Yes, we completists are drowning in our passions. My list is almost similar to yours, 14 versions overlapping.
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jlaurson

Quote from: (: premont :) on May 30, 2011, 08:22:32 AM
Yes, we completists are drowning in our passions. My list is almost similar to yours, 14 versions overlapping.

Then get ready for Riccardo Chailly's St.John Passion on Decca...

Marc

Quote from: jlaurson on May 30, 2011, 08:24:51 AM
Then get ready for Riccardo Chailly's St.John Passion on Decca...

Dunno. I wasn't impressed by his Matthäus. Insane opening chorus and overly interpreted chorales, with too much dynamic changes IMO. At the end, I wasn't spiritually lifted at all. But, who knows, maybe the Johannes is better suited to Chailly's operatic taste.

Coopmv

Quote from: Marc on May 30, 2011, 09:16:23 AM
Dunno. I wasn't impressed by his Matthäus. Insane opening chorus and overly interpreted chorales, with too much dynamic changes IMO. At the end, I wasn't spiritually lifted at all. But, who knows, maybe the Johannes is better suited to Chailly's operatic taste.

While I have not heard Chailly's SMP or SJP. I have no intention to get any of his passions.  Between Koopman, Herreweghe, Veldhoven, Gardiner and Harnoncourt plus many other non-HIP performances I have, including the SMP set from Mengelberg, the sets from Chaily add no values to my collection ...

Marc

Quote from: Antonio Marchand on May 30, 2011, 07:54:01 AM
Do you have the Magnificat by the Ricercar Consort, Marc? I wanted to upload some samples of the extra-DVD included there, but I need some time. Maria Keohane is a very good singer and also has beautiful corporal expression.

I have that issue and consider it quite a likeable one, with organ intermezzi (which I somehow seem to like ;)), but I have not seen the DVD (yet).

Mn Dave

My first listen I think, last night. Not the whole thing but a good part of the first disc (Munchinger/Stuttgart). As usual, I was fiddling about on the computer as I listened but had to stop at times because I was so moved. Magnificent! Sure to become a favorite with me.

jlaurson

Quote from: Marc on May 30, 2011, 09:16:23 AM
Dunno. I wasn't impressed by his Matthäus. Insane opening chorus and overly interpreted chorales, with too much dynamic changes IMO. At the end, I wasn't spiritually lifted at all. But, who knows, maybe the Johannes is better suited to Chailly's operatic taste.

Yes, the SMP isn't among my favorites, either... but the Christmas Oratorio is. And I love the fact that he's doing it with the Gewandhaus O. in the first place, and with such a high profile, too...  even if the results don't all awe me.

Marc

Quote from: toucan on November 02, 2011, 07:22:32 AM
I am glad no one brought up Eugen Jochum's recording because that leaves me with something useful to do: bringing up Eugene Jochum's recording, which is the best (ok, my favorite) among the versions I own.
[....]

Has been mentioned before, though only in a brief way.

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,13767.msg380702.html#msg380702

Quote from: toucan on November 02, 2011, 07:22:32 AM
[....] I hope fans of Ricardo Chailly won't get jealous, though: Jochum was conducting the concertgebouw [....]

After Eduard van Beinum died, Jochum was chief in Amsterdam for a while, sharing this conductorship with the young Bernard Haitink.
Jochum a.o. conducted the every-year-traditional Bach Passion on Palm Sunday in the Concertgebouw.

And Chailly is better off in Leipzig IMO (and so are his fans): people there are more willing to allow him to conduct any piece he wants to conduct, no matter from what composer or which period.

Marc

Quote from: jlaurson on November 02, 2011, 05:37:50 AM
Yes, the SMP isn't among my favorites, either... but the Christmas Oratorio is. And I love the fact that he's doing it with the Gewandhaus O. in the first place, and with such a high profile, too...  even if the results don't all awe me.

Of course. The Gewandhaus is a great orchestra. And Chailly is an impressive maestro.
And yes, I agree that Chailly's style seems to work better in a piece like BWV 248. But in the end, he will never be one of my favoured choices in Bach.

jlaurson

Quote from: Marc on November 02, 2011, 08:42:36 AM

After Eduard van Beinum died, Jochum was chief in Amsterdam for a while, sharing this conductorship with the young Bernard Haitink.
Jochum a.o. conducted the every-year-traditional Bach Passion on Palm Sunday in the Concertgebouw.

And Chailly is better off in Leipzig IMO (and so are his fans): people there are more willing to allow him to conduct any piece he wants to conduct, no matter from what composer or which period.
Quote from: Marc on November 02, 2011, 08:46:06 AM
Of course. The Gewandhaus is a great orchestra. And Chailly is an impressive maestro...

In truth, it's not necessarily that Chailly is better off in Leipzig than Amsterdam, it's in considerable part that Chailly is simply a much more mature, more interesting and, frankly, better conductor now than he was in his (early) Amsterdam days. (He was *really* young, then.) He now has the air of wise maestro... which nicely balances his repertoire choices (which are all over the place) along with his now considerable experience. In any case: what a lucky guy -- conducting first the RCO, now the LGhO... two ensembles among the few that still exist that have such a distinct, gorgeous sound.

http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=1664, http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/11/dip-your-ears-no-105.html


Marc

Quote from: jlaurson on November 02, 2011, 05:14:24 PM
In truth, it's not necessarily that Chailly is better off in Leipzig than Amsterdam, it's in considerable part that Chailly is simply a much more mature, more interesting and, frankly, better conductor now than he was in his (early) Amsterdam days. (He was *really* young, then.) He now has the air of wise maestro... which nicely balances his repertoire choices (which are all over the place) along with his now considerable experience. In any case: what a lucky guy -- conducting first the RCO, now the LGhO... two ensembles among the few that still exist that have such a distinct, gorgeous sound.

http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=1664, http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/11/dip-your-ears-no-105.html

Thanks for the link.

Nevertheless, I'd like to add that, also in cultural and musical matters, the Dutch and the Amsterdamned are still .... calvinists. Even, or even especially after the HIP revolution in the 1960s and 1970s.

Which means: shoemaker, keep to your last.

Bach has to be played by (semi-)HIP musicians and/or ensembles.
Not by the likes of a certain Bernard Haitink or maestro Riccardo Chailly.

Haitink never really got the chance to do Bach and was also put on the sidelines for Mozart and even Beethoven. And opera? No sir, a Concertgebouw chief doesn't do opera. (Since Mengelberg stated that opera was an inferior art, the calvinist Dutch, beside strictly instrumental music, only seemed to take religious vocal music seriously, like oratoria by Bach, Händel, Haydn et al.)

Chailly once did Bach's SMP in 1997 and was critized rather heavily after that. He had obiously hoped to do more Bach, but he (wisely) decided not to and managed to remain patient .... and now he is getting the chance.

The same goes for Haitink outside his home country: he has been conducting opera, Mozart and Bach (SMP, Boston 2008) without ado and to much acclaim. Things he always loved and wanted to do, but Amsterdam never or rarely gave him the chance.

premont

Quote from: toucan on November 04, 2011, 08:13:23 AM
This wrong-headed as well as dogmatic, intolerant and... (might as well keep this word implied) is not designed to enhance the reputation of HIP crowds, whether full, semi or in any other proportion

Luckily indeed, the baroque is not the private preserve of a minority of pedants...

So you think sense of style is unimportant?
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Marc

I prefer HIP (surprise surprise) but I think that it's nonsense to forbid non-HIP-ers to play their beloved composers.

Haitink and Chailly (f.i.) should be allowed to play Bach or Mozart with their 'own' orchestras, if they want to. By not allowing them, you might take the risk to lose very capable maestro's, because at a certain moment they just leave. At least for Haitink this was one of the reasons. He could not conduct what he wanted anymore.

If such is the ultimate consequence of what Frans Brüggen once said: "if the Concertgebouw Orchestra plays Mozart, every single note is a lie" (during the so-called Nutcracker Manifestation, Amsterdam 1969), then I'm pro HIP in matter of results and contra HIP in matters of law making and strict dogma's.

Btw: Brüggen is not that strict anymore. He himself is already chief conductor of the Radio Kamerorkest (modern instruments) since 2001, and has also conducted f.i. Bach keyboard concertos with a pianist (Piotr Anderszewski).

Asked why, he said something like: "what matters in the end, is musicality and mentality."

Topic duty: I might have that Jochum recording somewhere on Music Cassette, but I'm not sure. I do recall listening once to a radio broadcast of one of his live SMP's (1971 performance?).
It was definitely not my cup of tea, but despite that I though it was a noble interpretation.

premont

Quote from: toucan on November 04, 2011, 11:45:49 AM
Of course I think a sense of style is important; that is why I prefer Jochum to pedantic attempts at artificiously reconstructing an imagined past.
(+ emotive force & spirituality...)

I do not recall any historically informed musician who had nothing but a pedantic performance to offer.  So you have to tell me: Whom do you think of?
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