Best Compositions In the Past 20 years? (previously limited to 21st century)

[bhodges]

Just see bhodges's post: it's all rubbish, or at best of low artistic value. The world has completely lost sight of what art is- in literature, visual art and film just as much as music.

Obviously we are oceans apart, and will have to just agree to disagree.  However, I do wonder if you have heard *any* of the works I cite?  I also find it very sad that your definition of art seems to exclude most of what composers today are doing, since many of them are creating work that is stimulating, exciting, emotional, intellectual, and well worth hearing multiple times.  Plus, it sounds like you aren't responding to any contemporary writers, visual artists or filmmakers, either.  Too bad.

Henk, interesting distinction you suggest about music that seduces, but I'd argue once the sensuous, melodic side is at the service of some kind of form, this is the greatest music. Music prioritizing form and construction is diminished and only half alive.

All music leads up to and away from Wagner, and the greastest living composer is Philip Glass (and he's not the same).

Ah well, can't really argue with statements like this, if that's what you truly believe. 

--Bruce

[karlhenning]

Yes; as a faith-based initiative . . . .

[snyprrr]

Well, at least some guy's having fun! Good for you!

The point you made about things since 1950 not fully "flowering" yet:

Total serialism has fully flowered and faded, no?

HighModernism (1972-1984), Minimalism, Spectral...

...aren't we living in the post-PostModern world where every experiment has already been done at least once (since the '20s) and all we're doing now is picking through the box of bon-bons (techniques) for whatever suites our SelfActualized tastes. We are ALL "gods" now!

The stakes and standards are SOOOOOOO high right now, c'mon... for something to be a "masterpiece" right now, I mean, imagine the "impress me" level... once again... SuperBach (b. 2012)...

Bach+Scriabin's mystery+Stockhausen's mystery+Part+microtonal synthesizers+government involvement+utopian idealism+coersion

...complete absolute control and power...we are heading for an era of fascism (fasci...everything bundled together...for a CAUSE (whatever it may be)) in music...oh...I can feel a Dr.Strangelove speech coming on...

...a Glorious New Era of  Musical Psychology ushered in by the man-god SuperBach, who was genetically conceived...

THERE IS NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN!

Switched-On SuperBach 2012 is the masterpiece we are waiting for!

...a Super Race of black tights wearing Blonde Musicians that will march us into the fertile bosom of...

...and I saw the Son of SuperBach standing at the right h...

They will need music for "Satan Enthroned"! 0:)

[Sean]

bhodges

I know only the Boston concerto of those you mention: I've heard plenty by those names though and certainly don't need any more to understand them well enough.

...stimulating, exciting, emotional, intellectual,...

I completely disagree that the great majority of present day music is any of these things. It's largely ludicrous non-music written by idiots out of academic ivory towers: they are people whose minds are not even capable of knowing or responding to art. This is the fate of the postmodern society and the rise of the mindless, even if clever horde.

[Henk]

EDIT:

Sean, it's in fact Nietzsche's view I'm presenting..

Bruce, I have listened to many composers, romantic and modern. Nietzsche's view is in short that music of low values seduces the listener to experience and think it's music of high values, whereas good music is music that's great in itself, playful music, which is serious at the same time, music that when listening to it, you think of life as it has to be, living with the danger of a deep abyss, which makes life far more interesting and even pleasurable. This is what Nietzsche meant with his thought that the humanity is a chord from animal to Ubermensch, and only in this humanity can be justified. Only the great artists contribute to this chord.
The crisis was general, with Wagner as the most central figure, but also Liszt, Schumann, Mahler, Bruckner and even Schoenberg etc. were exemplary for this crisis. Many composers of 20th century had been influenced by Wagner, directly or indirectly. One can hear this in their music.
So what's important is to distinguish good music from music of low values. I don't want to sound dogmatic in this, but this is what I have to do because of a severe spirit (for example I easily accept that 80% of my music collection is actually "rubbish").
Many reviewers don't understand this. They don't make this difference as a consequence of not to think such a difference can be made at all! (or of not wanting to be (regarded as) dogmatic).
So what has to be done is to recognize and sort out this good music from the huge production of music that counts as romantic and modern music.

Henk

[Henk]

All music leads up to and away from Wagner, and the greastest living composer is Philip Glass (and he's not the same).

Louis Andriessen I think.

[Sean]

Henk, at least Andriessen wrote some minimalist stuff, but he's a minor figure.

As for Nietzsche's narrow minded idea about the supremacy of classical forms, the reason he went insane is that romantic and more intuitive and emotional forms in fact issue from the same formal concerns: form isn't perspicuous frames but instead a matter of more fundamental and hidden imperatives that composers like Beethoven and Wagner were finding. The fact that romantic music doesn't always have transparency of structure doesn't mean it's disingenous. Etc. Music and art are more complex than little twerps like Nietzsche and Adorno and their dialectics and simplistic notions of criticality were ever going to understand.

[Henk]

Henk, at least Andriessen wrote some minimalist stuff, but he's a minor figure.

As for Nietzsche's narrow minded idea about the supremacy of classical forms, the reason he went insane is that romantic and more intuitive and emotional forms in fact issue from the same formal concerns: form isn't perspicuous frames but instead a matter of more fundamental and hidden imperatives that composers like Beethoven and Wagner were finding. The fact that romantic music doesn't always have transparency of structure doesn't mean it's disingenous. Etc. Music and art are more complex than little twerps like Nietzsche and Adorno and their dialectics and simplistic notions of criticality were ever going to understand.

EDIT:



Sean, you are even a bigger boaster than I am!! I at least take my boasting serious, but maybe you too ? In dutch there's a nicer word for "boast", "bluf" (dus niet met de bijbetekenis van grootspraak of brallen).

[Henk]

Henk, at least Andriessen wrote some minimalist stuff, but he's a minor figure.

As for Nietzsche's narrow minded idea about the supremacy of classical forms, the reason he went insane is that romantic and more intuitive and emotional forms in fact issue from the same formal concerns: form isn't perspicuous frames but instead a matter of more fundamental and hidden imperatives that composers like Beethoven and Wagner were finding. The fact that romantic music doesn't always have transparency of structure doesn't mean it's disingenous. Etc. Music and art are more complex than little twerps like Nietzsche and Adorno and their dialectics and simplistic notions of criticality were ever going to understand.

Nietzsche liked (the music of) Beethoven!

[monafam]

I find this dialogue/debate very interesting and stimulating....my only problem is that I'm not following it all that well.  Maybe I'm making the mistake of drawing up an order of battle to see who is on what side (most modern music is bad vs is not bad), but perhaps it's much deeper than that. 

As someone trying to gain a better appreciation of more modern compositions (I have several threads where I've said the same thing), it certainly can get confusing.   

[karlhenning]

Henk, at least Andriessen wrote some minimalist stuff

As if "writing some minimalist stuff" is the touchstone here.

Yes; as a faith-based initiative . . . .

[bhodges]

...whereas good music is music that's great in itself, playful music, which is serious at the same time, music that when listening to it, you think of life as it has to be, living with the danger of a deep abyss, which makes life far more interesting and even pleasurable.

Not certain I am understanding your points completely, but this comment above does resonate, and everything I've mentioned, I did precisely because I believe it would fall into that category.  I would add that it's very, very early in the century to offer comments "carved in stone," as it were, since we need the perspective of time passing.  What will we be listening to in 100 years?  I have no idea.

Anyway, some more candidates for "Best of the 21st Century" to date.  Repeat, candidates, and in no particular order:

Andriessen is very influential, so perhaps something by him, although looking at his 21st-century output, I haven't heard much of his most recent work.  In April 2010 the Los Angeles Philharmonic's "Green Umbrella" series is doing a concert version of his opera, La Commedia (2004-2008).

John Adams: Son of Chamber Symphony (2007)
Steve Reich: Daniel Variations (2006); Double Sextet (2007)
Tristan Murail: Les Travaux et les Jours, for piano (2002)
Osvaldo Golijov: Ainadamar (2003)
György Kurtág: Hipartita, for violin (2004)
Thomas Adès: Tevot (2007)
Thomas Adès: The Tempest (2004)
Kaija Saariaho: Orion (2002); La Passione de Simone (2006)

--Bruce

[Henk]

Bruce, I may agree, I also don't know yet what to think of some music. But what do you think of most late-romantic music? Can it all be traced back to Wagner, Liszt or do you hear influences of Beethoven, Mendelssohn and Schubert? What do you think of more modern 20th century composers inspired by Wagner?

I do know some composers who actually do fit for sure in that category: Stravinsky, Messiaen, Janacek, Anderson and Andriessen.

[bhodges]

Bruce, I may agree, I also don't know yet what to think of some music. But what do you think of most late-romantic music? Can it all be traced back to Wagner, Liszt or do you hear influences of Beethoven, Mendelssohn and Schubert? What do you think of more modern 20th century composers inspired by Wagner?

In late-romantic music, I definitely hear Wagner's footprint, no doubt about it--and in many cases, all of the other composers you mention.  But I cannot agree with Sean's comment that "all music leads up to and away from Wagner."  I'm OK with the premise, "SOME music leads up to..." for which there is ample evidence.  But composers today have too many influences from which to choose, and are writing in far too many different styles to come to a single generalization about what is being written today.

Offhand, I don't really know who is writing at the moment who would cite Wagner as an influence...perhaps you do?  There must be someone.  I just don't recall hearing Wagner's name mentioned, other than works here and there in which the composer's program notes cite him, perhaps as an influence on a specific piece.

--Bruce

[Henk]

It's important to remain as objective as possible. Don't think at forehand "I want to like this music", just notice what the music does to you.

[bhodges]

I affirm that objective outlook, although I will say that personally, I am inclined to give anyone writing music today the benefit of the doubt.  I do "want to like this music," and often do. 

Just want to add that it really is very early in the new century to be trying to predict what will last and what will fall by the wayside.  We are just now getting enough distance from say, the 1970s and 1980s, so that some perspective can be gained and (perhaps) some conclusions can be drawn about what was "high-quality" during that time.  But this is precisely why hearing new works is so exhilarating: you might be hearing something that future generations will recognize as a landmark--and you're getting to hear it in its earliest days.

--Bruce

[Henk]

Now listening to Rihm's "Jagden und Formen". It sounds more as a succession of effects to me (which possibly resembles "the actor in music", what Nietzsche emphasized) then of good music with beautiful melodies (in honour of Sean).

[bhodges]

Well, give the Rihm a chance, if you're inclined, and listen to it 3 or 4 times--enough so you can sense the overall form, and anticipate some of the sequences.  To me it's almost like a very long scherzo, with headlong forward motion that subsides only briefly before barreling along again.

And nothing wrong with "beautiful melodies"--we all like them.  (At least, I think we all do.  )  But some music--some great music--isn't concerned with melody, or at least, melody that can be discerned and digested quickly.

--Bruce

[Tapkaara]

While he may not the greatest 21st century composer, he is my favorite...Wojciech Kilar. Yes, he composed in the 20th century too, but he is the only living composer (besides Glass) that I feel I can really get into.

Kilar's September Symphony, written in response to 9/11, is a very moving work.

Of course, Ifukube wrote in the 21st century too. Chamber works mostly.

[Henk]

Well, give the Rihm a chance, if you're inclined, and listen to it 3 or 4 times--enough so you can sense the overall form, and anticipate some of the sequences.  To me it's almost like a very long scherzo, with headlong forward motion that subsides only briefly before barreling along again.

And nothing wrong with "beautiful melodies"--we all like them.  (At least, I think we all do.  )  But some music--some great music--isn't concerned with melody, or at least, melody that can be discerned and digested quickly.

--Bruce

I've listened to the Rihm multiple times. I think when I want to like the music I actually really like it, but I'm afraid that in that process music of low values becomes music which claims to be music of distinction. When I just listen to the music and observe what the music does to me it leaves me cold. But when I do the same (observe what the music does to me) listening to Stravinsky or Messiaen I get thrilled by the music. Can you imagine this and counter-attack this?

Henk