Tennis anyone?

[Madiel]

And, of course, the top players are (normally) the only ones who can afford the better legal teams.

Yes, this seems to me to be one of the main rumblings about "unfairness".

Which is similar to claims in the general legal system. And I think the target of those sorts of complaints is often misplaced. That only some people are wealthy enough to actually mount legal arguments is not a sign that wealthy people are a problem, it's often a sign that nobody is in a position to properly check that the prosecution did their own internal checking that the case was sound.

There's actually been 2 high-profile criminal acquittals in the last 2 weeks where I wondered why the case ever went to trial. Both with famous accused who could afford to mount a defence. But both where the facts were pretty solidly on their side and where somebody on the prosecution side should have said "let's stop and think about this", and in one of the cases (Sam Kerr, footballer) the prosecution initially DID say that and it was the police who really wanted to go ahead. The other case was the rapper A$AP Rocky. Neither case gives me the impression of a rich person able to hire tricky lawyers who got them off. Both cases give me the impression of a defendant who was able hire lawyers to show the prosecution case was badly flawed, where some people would have struggled to afford the professional help to show the flaws.

[Kalevala]

There was one interesting twist(?) in Sinner's case:  the physio (who apparently had a cut on his hand) bought the spray in Italy, which according to the source that I read/heard, is required to label the product with some sort of WADA label/warning, so you would think that they either wouldn't have used it or have been extra careful when working on Sinner?

K

[Madiel]

There was one interesting twist(?) in Sinner's case:  the physio (who apparently had a cut on his hand) bought the spray in Italy, which according to the source that I read/heard, is required to label the product with some sort of WADA label/warning, so you would think that they either wouldn't have used it or have been extra careful when working on Sinner?

K

I would want to see your source. I don't think it's likely that countries go around putting WADA warnings on things, because the great majority of the population have no need to know that WADA doesn't like the contents. There are cold medications that would fall in that category.

I know one difference between Italy and a lot of countries is that Italians don't require a prescription for products containing this particular drug. It was an over the counter product.

[Madiel]

Addendum: according to the original decision, more than half of all anti-doping cases relating to this drug involve its detection in Italy. It's an ordinary consumer product on the Italian market.

[Kalevala]

I would want to see your source. I don't think it's likely that countries go around putting WADA warnings on things, because the great majority of the population have no need to know that WADA doesn't like the contents. There are cold medications that would fall in that category.

I know one difference between Italy and a lot of countries is that Italians don't require a prescription for products containing this particular drug. It was an over the counter product.

I'm trying to remember where I heard/read that?  I'll try and find it...

I found this:  https://apnews.com/article/us-open-jannik-sinner-doping-trofodermin-clostebol-a0ad903ead6af09dde6ed0a890ffbd68

Wonder whether or not one could get a special exemption in order to use it?  In any event....

K

[Kalevala]

Addendum: according to the original decision, more than half of all anti-doping cases relating to this drug involve its detection in Italy. It's an ordinary consumer product on the Italian market.

I had known that it was an over-the-counter product, but that's interesting to learn that.  Thanks.

K

[Madiel]

I'm trying to remember where I heard/read that?  I'll try and find it...

I found this:  https://apnews.com/article/us-open-jannik-sinner-doping-trofodermin-clostebol-a0ad903ead6af09dde6ed0a890ffbd68

Wonder whether or not one could get a special exemption in order to use it?  In any event....

K

Thanks. Well, reading the whole chain of events, there is a reason why the physio using the spray (who isn't the person who BOUGHT the spray) never saw the outside packaging. It seems highly likely that someone verbally told the physio there was an issue, but it also seems that for various reasons he either didn't pay attention or didn't understand.

Sinner actually fired the guy after this blunder. But essentially the issue was what more could have Sinner done to guard against the doping risk? And the answer of the original tribunal was that he'd done everything he could, and couldn't be expected to anticipate what transpired.

It's kind of fascinating to read the precedents that get mentioned. One player tested positive to cocaine after kissing a woman who'd been taking it. That was considered unforseeable. I think one of the issues is that testing these days is so extremely sensitive. Once upon a time people didn't know that "transfer DNA" was a thing either.

[Kalevala]

Thanks. Well, reading the whole chain of events, there is a reason why the physio using the spray (who isn't the person who BOUGHT the spray) never saw the outside packaging. It seems highly likely that someone verbally told the physio there was an issue, but it also seems that for various reasons he either didn't pay attention or didn't understand.

Sinner actually fired the guy after this blunder. But essentially the issue was what more could have Sinner done to guard against the doping risk? And the answer of the original tribunal was that he'd done everything he could, and couldn't be expected to anticipate what transpired.

It's kind of fascinating to read the precedents that get mentioned. One player tested positive to cocaine after kissing a woman who'd been taking it. That was considered unforseeable. I think one of the issues is that testing these days is so extremely sensitive. Once upon a time people didn't know that "transfer DNA" was a thing either.

Interesting that the physio hadn't been the one to have purchased the spray.  Perhaps he did get it box and all and/or maybe been the one to request it to begin with?  In any event, it's water under the bridge.  Sinner ended up parting ways with not just the physio but also the trainer.

Richard Gasquet (a French tennis player who has been on the circuit for many years) was the one to whom you were referring (re: kiss).

Currently watching some of the tennis from Qatar (now a ATP 500 event); Novak was beaten in the first round of singles (mind you, he hadn't played since the Australian Open due to a tear in one of his hamstrings) and out in the second round of men's doubles (with Verdasco--his, V's, last event).  Now Medvedev is out of it too (illness?).

K

[Madiel]

Your "perhaps" is simply contrary to the evidence.

Have you never used a product in someone else's possession, or never lent something out? Has every aspirin you've ever taken been one that you purchased?

Someone cut their finger. Someone else offered them a spray that would help heal the cut. Because they had bought the spray previously for their own use as needed. It wasn't purchased for the purpose of treating that particular cut, just as you don't buy a new packet of aspirins or band-aids every time a use case arises.

[Kalevala]

Your "perhaps" is simply contrary to the evidence.

Have you never used a product in someone else's possession, or never lent something out? Has every aspirin you've ever taken been one that you purchased?

Someone cut their finger. Someone else offered them a spray that would help heal the cut. Because they had bought the spray previously for their own use as needed. It wasn't purchased for the purpose of treating that particular cut, just as you don't buy a new packet of aspirins or band-aids every time a use case arises.

A few minutes ago, before reading this, I looked at the article again.  According to the AP article, the trainer is/was(?) also a certified pharmacist.

K

[Madiel]

A few minutes ago, before reading this, I looked at the article again.  According to the AP article, the trainer is/was(?) also a certified pharmacist.

K

Yes. The trainer who bought/owned the spray was  thoroughly knowledgeable in pharmacology.  Knowing what Sinner could and couldn't take was part of his job.

[Iota]

That is never the case. Police and prosecutors always have a discretion whether or not to prosecute someone. I think one of your difficulties here is that you keep thinking WADA is the court that "issued" the punishment. They're not. They're the police/prosecutors. Sinner made a plea deal with them. You don't make a plea deal with a court.

And it's not "their" rules in that sense. The rules are the exact same rules that the original decision-makers were applying. The original decision-makers decided that Sinner had met the very high bar for being found to not be at fault in any way. WADA decided they disagreed and lodged an appeal. That's about interpretation of the facts. Which brings me back to the factual point - WADA decided that they thought that Sinner was required to force another grown adult to wash their hands.

Understood, thank you for the explanation.

My 'difficulty' had always been that I assumed from your post WADA's rules were inviolable, and didn't know specifically what its role was in the administering of punishment. But with your explanation I do now know and it makes perfect sense. And I'm still in the same position of thinking it very unfair on Sinner, not least because, if the details are not known widely enough, this kind of thing tends to stick even when someone is innocent. Hopefully they will become widely known and allow his reputation to fully recover.