Rival Composers?

[monafam]

(This might be better for the "Composers" sub forum, but since it didn't involve anyone specifically, I thought I'd start it here.  Please move if necessary.)

One thing that is always fascinating to me is the interaction between composers.  When said composers are rivals, don't like each other, or are otherwise in competition, it is even more interesting to me.

Does anyone know of any good (past or present) rivalries between composers (could be specific to individuals or "schools" of musical thinkning)?  I'd love to hear the stories -- what led to it, the comments made, etc. etc.

Thanks as always in advance!

[hornteacher]

I guess the most famous was the Brahms vs Wagner rivalry which was more between their styles of music rather than the people themselves.  In a nutshell.......

On the Romantic Conservative side you have Mendelssohn, Schumann, Brahms, and Dvorak who stuck to Classical period forms and genres but treated them with more Romantic characteristics in terms of tonal development and scope.

On the Romantic Radical side you have Berlioz, Liszt, Wagner, and Bruckner who felt the so called "music of the future" was characterized by encompassing poetry, literature, and art into a more free style of music that only used conventional forms when the composer desired.

Brahms and Wagner had moments of mutual respect but in general did not care for each other's musical style.  Brahms did however strongly disapprove of the overly extravagant lifestyle that Liszt led.  There's a lot more to the story but this will get you started.

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, I go back a bit further (I'm older) to the late 1750's and the War of the Buffons, the opera battle between the Piccinists and the Gluckists. I mean, other than the musical battle, we're talking fighting in the streets here between partisans. Oh, those French!     I won't go into great detail here, but I recommend you to look it up (Wiki should have something on it if you search Gluck). It's worth hunting down, if only for the inherent absurdity...

[Josquin des Prez]

Brahms did however strongly disapprove of the overly extravagant lifestyle that Liszt led.

What extravagant lifestyle was that?

[springrite]

I love it when a lesser composer tries to pick a fight and become a rival of a major composer, hoping that it will elevate himself into major composer category, but no one seems to pay attention. The first that comes to mind would be Lalo who wrote so many critiques of Brahms. Interestingly, most of the criticism was about composing technique, as if he is the grand master and the better orchestrator, melodist, etc. It is so pathetic reading it that it's funny.

[Franco]

Stravinsky & Schoenberg, at least rumored as such.  But it is true, that after both left Europe and settled in California, living not far from each other in the Los Angeles area, it is said that they hardly, if ever, communicated.  

The rivalry, if it can be called that, stems from a basic difference in compositional style: Schoenberg strove to further develop the German style, in the shadow of Beethoven, using melodic cells and motivic development to build up an musical architecture incrementally, whereas Stravinsky was more in the French school of impressionistic gestures, orchestral effects and more long-winded melodic development.  Although Stravinsky also used small motivic cells to great effect, just differently than how it is customarily done in the "German style".

Later in life, after Schoenberg was no longer alive, Stravinsky adopted some of Schoenberg's techniques, however making them entirely his own, but during the 1930s and 1940s, Stravinsky was adamant about divorcing himself from the 12-tone style.  

Interestingly, Robert Craft was a student, friend and biographer of both Stravinsky and Schoenberg, and has written a book documenting his unique observation point between these two giants of 20th Century music.

[Josquin des Prez]

Later in life, after Schoenberg was no longer alive, Stravinsky adopted some of Webern's techniques

Fixed.

[SonicMan46]

I guess the most famous was the Brahms vs Wagner rivalry which was more between their styles of music rather than the people themselves.  In a nutshell.......

My first thought also - Eduard Hanslick (1825-1904), a musical writer, was another interesting character in this 'romantic battleground' of the 19th century! 

[DavidW]

Scheibe was a former student of Bach and a young lad (a college student at the time) that wanted to embrace the emerging newer style of music.  In his letters he widely criticized Bach's complex contrapuntal textures as making the music lack clarity and beauty.  I think this is were the misnomer that Bach did not keep up with the times came from.  He actually studied the music of his contemporaries and wrote music that was rococo style inspired, while keeping his core personal style intact.  His personality and mastery of counterpoint is so superior to the galant music of the time, that it's difficult to hear it in his music when it is still inherently Johann Sebastian and not remotely Johann Christian, but nevertheless these elements appear from time to time in his late works.  Despite the little upstart Scheibe, many people at the time realized that Bach's music was beautiful, simply difficult and not necessarily for everyone that will not give it the full attention it needs, which is not unlike the reception that Carter receives now.

So there it is: Scheibe vs. Bach, I wonder who won?

[monafam]

Thanks for the information thusfar.  I've really enjoyed reading about it, and it sounds like there are some good books out there as well.  Keep them coming. 

I feel like I shouldn't crave the information on these disputes, but I just can't help myself.   

What about Student vs Teacher?  I know I had posted something previously inquiring about Bernstein's treatment of Hovhaness, and someone indicated that they were at school (Bernstein assisting rather than teaching?) together.   Would love to know if there is a backstory to that as well.

[Sergeant Rock]

Langgaard vs Nielsen ....at least Langgaard thought he was a rival. I don't think anyone else noticed  

Sarge

[karlhenning]

. . . not unlike the reception that Carter receives now.

Surgically done!

(Fine post overall, BTW)

[springrite]

Langgaard vs Nielsen ....at least Langgaard thought he was a rival. I don't think anyone else noticed  

Sarge

Exactly! Langgaard attributed his being ignored by the music establishment to Nielsen's reputation, influence and popularity.  ( Afterall, Denmark being a small country, and have "no room" for TWO major composers. )

[The new erato]

Handel vs Porpora in London, which eventually (IIRC) led to the demise of Handel's first opera company.

[CRCulver]

Xenakis versus Boulez. Boulez reportedly condemned Xenakis for not embracing serialism, and Xenakis felt Boulez was sucking up all the new music funding in France for himself instead of letting it go around to all causes.

[jimmosk]

Langgaard vs Nielsen ....at least Langgaard thought he was a rival. I don't think anyone else noticed  

A lovely by-product of this one-way rivalry was Langgaard's composition Carl Nielsen, Our Great Composer, about which I'll just quote from http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=42:358615:

Langgaard wrote around 400 pieces of music, more than half of which had never been performed by the time of his death. All of this left him a bitter man, and he blamed Carl Nielsen. This work's title of praise is, therefore, entirely insincere. The work is only 32 measures long. It is a grandiose paean, whose entire text is the title of the work, repeated several times. This curious manuscript showed up at Danish Radio, submitted incomplete by Langgaard. It bore the inscription "Dedicated to 'Musical Life in Denmark' 1891-1948." Clearly, it was meant to portray throngs of musicians mindlessly parroting the phrase "Carl Nielsen, Our Great Composer!" The composer had fully scored only the first seven measures, using the most inflated orchestration: full orchestra, mixed chorus, and organ. The orchestration of the remaining 25 measures, he added in a note, could "surely be completed by Emil Reesen." Reesen was sometimes hired by Nielsen to be a musical assistant and do the orchestrations for occasional music and incidental stage scores. At the end of the last bar Langgaard gives the instruction: "To be repeated to eternity!"

[Gabriel]

During the classical period:

Koželuch was a rival of Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven (mostly Mozart's, anyway).

Clementi versus Mozart is a famous rivalry, but it was most of all as pianists and not so much as composers. The same can be said about Beethoven and Wölfl.

In France, Lesueur was (if I remember correctly) a rival of Méhul.

It's difficult to qualify them as "rivals", but it is attested that Cherubini and Berlioz had (both) reciprocal disagreements and admiration.

[ChamberNut]

Don't forget the most "historically accurate" rival, between Salieri and Mozart! Especially, as portrayed in the movie Amadeus. 

[ChamberNut]

Don't forget the most "historically accurate" rival, between Salieri and Mozart! Especially, as portrayed in the movie Amadeus. 

Amadeus......the version you haven't seen!  Did he really exist?!  Special cameo appearance by Rob Newman, as Andrea Luchesi.

[jlaurson]

Can't quite say "Rival Composers"... but Mendelssohn and Berlioz showed mutual incomprehension about each other's work, as did Brahms and Tchaikovsky. They were nice about it to each other's faces, but in their letters they let go. Mendelssohn less so, because he really was--maddeningly, almost--a gentleman to the core.