Haydn cf Scarlatti harpsichord sonatas

[Sean]

I recently bought the Schornsheim complete Haydn keyboard and curious to note parallels between the early sonatas for harpsichord and the Scarlatti: some (looking particularly at the Grove 1980 Scarlatti article) might include

Starting phrases as though half way through an idea, adding to the impulsiveness and onward drive.

Perhaps a relation to postmodern nihilistic, non-dialectical type criticism and a bliss-consciousness.

The constancy and containment of the harpsichord in each case compares with minimalist ecstasy- piano performances almost completely missing this.

No matter what the history and significance of compositional devices and techniques, they're treated in a similar juxtapositional, playful way; there's an irony and individuality, including false relations, overcomposition or imitation, the openings sometimes unstable in material and tonality.

Devices are treated as just more material for play, for instance in Scarlatti, the great baroque fugal gestures having no potency for him but just become one more of the contrasting textures, often appearing grotesque, taunting or irrational.

The constant English enthusiasm for the Scarlatti sonatas and Haydn reflects that culture's scepticism for theoretically driven structures: there's an inner form and intuitively perceived interrelations between the music's components.

[lukeottevanger]

Ordinarily, Sean, I'd love to respond to this - it contains some very interesting and perceptive observations, amongst which I particularly liked:

No matter what the history and significance of compositional devices and techniques, they're treated in a similar juxtapositional, playful way; there's an irony and individuality, including false relations, overcomposition or imitation, the openings sometimes unstable in material and tonality.

Devices are treated as just more material for play, for instance in Scarlatti, the great baroque fugal gestures having no potency for him but just become one more of the contrasting textures, often appearing grotesque, taunting or irrational.

However, right now I'm not going to delve further - I've had about as much as I can take of discussing Scarlatti for the time being on another thread. But I must say my enthusiasm for him has always been deep, and is deepening daily; you've caught me in the middle of a particularly strong Scarlatti phase, as it happens. As I posted yesterday, I was delighted and nostalgic to discover this week that my first 'proper' piano teacher, Richard Lester (who taught me aged about 5-7) is in the middle of releasing the first fully complete set of Scarlatti sonatas on Nimbus as we speak (harpsichord and organ).

[Sean]

Very interesting Luke. I bought the Scott Ross set but though accomplished he just doesn't attack the keyboard as some do- there's a fantastic passion in this music that he doesn't find in its fullest (he's also inconsistent re the repeats, which is a pity as they often function as a means to drive the music forward with the last few bars being omitted with the curved line): however a couple of the boxes, with a bright harpsichord he uses, are inspired.

Naxos are doing a full set also, though one drawback right away I think is that a few discs make use of fortepianos...

[Sean]

& I was just wondering what the other thread was...?

[Drasko]

& I was just wondering what the other thread was...?

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1300.0.html

[FideLeo]

Do the Lester sets on Nimbus have the label's (in)famous hazy acoustics as well?  I SO hope that they have good sound to match the performances.   

Scott Ross recorded the Scarlatti in a marathon of very small doses - two or three at most in each session and so for a year, and he didn't know some of the music at all - so it would be almost like sightreading it through.  Taking that into consideration, I find his set to be quite an achievement beside its obvious pioneering status.

[Josquin des Prez]

I bought the Scott Ross complete set a few years back. Stunning effort all around, particularly considering the conditions in which it was recorded. The man was a genius, i even rank him higher then Leonhardt.

BTW Sean, i find odd that you like Scarlatti. I thought you were done with polyphonic music by now...

[Josquin des Prez]

er, polyphony & scarlatti? nah, rarely

All baroque music is contrapuntal, it just a matter of degree. Most of Scarlatti's music is neatly written for 3 or 4 parts, and it's full of imitative passages and contrapuntal ornamentations.

Also, not all of his keyboard pieces are 'sonatas' proper (even if they are all lumped under the name). Many of them are toccatas, capriccios, concertos, suite movements (allemandes, courantes, gigues ect.), variations and fourfull blown fugues (k.30, k.41, k.58 and k.93), at least that i was able to find so far.

Regrettably, i wasn't able to find out the nature of each sonata. The booklet in the Ross edition mention the form used by some, but it's far from being comprehensive.

I found the first 30 sonatas to be particularly thick in contrapuntal devices. Try to listen to them polyphonically, particularly number 1, 4 and 12 (which are toccatas), and of course the fugue in k.30.

[lukeottevanger]

All baroque music is contrapuntal, it just a matter of degree. Most of Scarlatti's music is neatly written for 3 or 4 parts, and it's full of imitative passages and contrapuntal ornamentations.

Absolutely - there are fugues (among them the famous Cat fugue) but also-pseudo polyphony such as in the early A minor sonata (K 2 or 3, I think) which plays around with imitation and modulation to great effect.

[Edit - to be honest, Scarlatti's fugues are not really very thorough-going as part-writing, relying much more on parallel motion, octaves etc to thicken the texture and give the impression of 'true' fugue. But polyphonic they are, nevertheless. Though I don't want to give the idea that polyphonic music is somehow more desirable/natural/etc. than non-polyphonic, as some might have it, nor vice versa, as Sean has had it in the past]

Also, not all of his keyboard pieces are 'sonatas' proper (even if they are all lumped under the name). Many of them are toccatas, capriccios, concertos, suite movements (allemandes, courantes, gigues ect.), variations and fourfull blown fugues (k.30, k.41, k.58 and k.93), at least that i was able to find so far.

Regrettably, i wasn't able to find out the nature of each sonata. The booklet in the Ross edition mention the form used by some, but it's far from being comprehensive.

Well, none of them - as far as I've played them, which is the first 80 or so and then many of the rest over the years - is in 'proper' sonata form, naturally; the vast majority are in a binary form, but often with incipient developments at the appropriate place (the famous K175 is a good example of this, actually). Sean is right, though - there's nothing academic or theoretical about the form, whether 'development' is present or not: it all flows spontaneously from what precedes.

I found the first 30 sonatas to be particularly thick in contrapuntal devices. Try to listen to them polyphonically, particularly number 1, 4 and 12 (which are toccatas), and of course the fugue in k.30.

Quite right.

his major contributions were mainly technical, more specifically keyboard technique, he was a dazzler in his day...

There's more to it than that; there is a very real sense in which he created the Spanish national style (in classical music) a long time before such things are 'supposed' to have happened. His dense but finely judged cluster chords are centuries ahead of their time, as are his complex ornamentations within those chords. Both these phenomena - they are linked - rely on the incisive plucked attack of a harpsichord to be fully effective (because the idea of the guitar is close in the background), but James, as we know, is reluctant to admit that harpsichord can bring anything sepcial to this music.

But I think Scarlatti is more significant than that. I'm with Sean on this one - I think his analysis of these pieces as possessing a species of 'non-dialectical type criticism and...bliss-consciousness' whilst rather startlingly-phrased is actually pretty close to the mark: what astonishes about these pieces is their profusion, variety and invention, but also their constant wit and their treatment of composition as an arena for play. The fairly simple formal structures are used to allow the material within simply to 'be', not to be over-manipulated, and I think that is very significant. Presumably it is one of the reasons that these sonatas were taken, famously and still-astonishingly, as the models for Cage's Sonatas and Interludes

[lukeottevanger]

Do the Lester sets on Nimbus have the label's (in)famous hazy acoustics as well?  I SO hope that they have good sound to match the performances.   

I don't know about that yet - I've order the first two 6CD volumes, but partly simply because I want to have them for personal reasons, this being my childhood teacher of course. (The price at Amazon UK didn't hurt - the second volume was under £7!)

[Josquin des Prez]

Excellent post luke, as always.

there's nothing academic or theoretical about the form

Indeed, but that is exactly in the spirit of the baroque. Even the most academic of those forms, like the ricercare or the fuga were improvisatory in nature and few composers ever followed a rigid scheme as far back as the Renaissance.

Be that as it may, they can still offer a certain guideline to the character of a piece. If K.4 is not a true toccata in the formal sense, it's still more contrapuntally woven and 'toccata' like then the following sonata (k.5), which is more 'spanish' in character. In a similar vein, you can definitely tell that k.61 is a set of variations while k.83, which is marked 'prelude and minuet', is infact a prelude followed by a small minuet.

There's no denying Scarlatti followed instincts and not technique, but he was born in an age where performers were able to 'think' polyphonically and even improvise fugues on the spot and counterpoint is still an important element of his art. Many people seem to think of him as a proto classicist and i don't think that's really accurate.

[Sean]

Luke

...I'm with Sean on this one - I think his analysis of these pieces as possessing a species of 'non-dialectical type criticism and...bliss-consciousness' whilst rather startlingly-phrased is actually pretty close to the mark: what astonishes about these pieces is their profusion, variety and invention, but also their constant wit and their treatment of composition as an arena for play. The fairly simple formal structures are used to allow the material within simply to 'be', not to be over-manipulated, and I think that is very significant.

Yes, that line sounded waffly, although I know what I mean- 'a timeless non-dialectical criticism' is a concept that's been used in relation to Messiaen's quasi-religious ecstacy, and 'bliss consciousness' comes from Indian philosophy...

The Grove article ends with comparing Soler's similar sonatas to Scarlatti's: ...aping many features of Scarlatti's form, rhetoric and tonal audacity, but never achieving the distinction of his model and thus showing the difficulty, if not impossibility, of isolating the factors contributing to the quality of the music: ie intuitively, aesthetically perceived interrelations between the music's components- a kind of inner form not based on the intellect.

Scarlatti uses the acciaccatura with greater frequency and variety than any other composer- definitely my favourite ornament too.

Presumably it is one of the reasons that these sonatas were taken, famously and still-astonishingly, as the models for Cage's Sonatas and Interludes

I got hold of the Cage piece about a year ago and though interesting I think we're not going to entirely agree on its merits- I thought it another in his long line of agreeable, mildly engaging keyboard twitterings.

[lukeottevanger]

I got hold of the Cage piece about a year ago and though interesting I think we're not going to entirely agree on its merits- I thought it another in his long line of agreeable, mildly engaging keyboard twitterings.

Yes, but Sean, that's exactly what those who don't 'get' Scarlatti (for want of a better word) would say about him! For example what James writes of Scarlatti is pretty much synonymous with what you write of Cage's S+Is: 'his music is fun but rather light-weight imo'

I think the formal combination of 'Satie and Scarlatti'* in the S+Is is really fascinating, and I think the pieces themselves are a large step above any other of Cage's comparable works - they are great music in the traditional sense as well as being pretty iconoclastic in their own way. I'm happy to go into details, but this probably isn't the thread to do it in.

* Satie and Scarlatti - that's quite snappy, don't you think? - and FWIW, possibly interestingly, Satie's another misunderstood and under-rated composer to whom this damning-with-faint-praise is often applied

[lukeottevanger]

Scarlatti uses the acciaccatura with greater frequency and variety than any other composer- definitely my favourite ornament too.

Just saw this line properly - great idea for a thread! I'm only surprised Mark hasn't already run a poll on this one 

FWIW, mine's the trill. Seriously...

[Sean]

Luke

Yes, but Sean, that's exactly what those who don't 'get' Scarlatti (for want of a better word) would say about him! For example what James writes of Scarlatti is pretty much synonymous with what you write of Cage's S+Is: 'his music is fun but rather light-weight imo'

I think there's a postmodern element to Scarlatti where what is actually important is what the listener simply finds they subjectively like, without having to relate the structure or analysable skill or whatever of the piece to some great historical tradition. I'd also argue for links with minimalism or at least repetition in various arts, and the fascination therein, both in the repeated passages he goes for and the fact he wrote nothing but the same short binary sonata for several decades.

Re Cage's S&I you obviously know the piece better than me: I did notice some recurrent themes that seemed to help hold the thing together in a traditional sense, and I was surprised at the length, far longer than the prepared piano sonatas etc.

Satie, yes I guess so. He saw things that few others have and like Scarlatti has a glint in his eye and a smile on his face most of the time. His Gnossiennes and Gymnopedies seem to be the most interesting works, though I've got hold of several others including some four hands ones, along with the wayward ballet Parade.

Ives gets my vote though for the real combination of the comic plus the intelligent: to mention one of the most startling pieces, the Variations on America for organ, but also the Concord sonata and last week I recorded the Second violin sonata with its critical little quotes of famous tunes in bizarre places, treated and cut off in unexpected ways. There's also a gravity of course, and indeed I don't claim to have answered all the questions here...

(I only know a couple of Ruggles piece but I know he's slightly similar too).

[Ten thumbs]

Just a point that seems to have been missed by many performers: - most Scarlatti sonatas belong in pairs. Isolating one is like recording a single movement of a Haydn sonata.

[lukeottevanger]

Luke

I think there's a postmodern element to Scarlatti where what is actually important is what the listener simply finds they subjectively like, without having to relate the structure or analysable skill or whatever of the piece to some great historical tradition. I'd also argue for links with minimalism or at least repetition in various arts, and the fascination therein, both in the repeated passages he goes for and the fact he wrote nothing but the same short binary sonata for several decades.

Well, certainly he was aware of the cumulative power of starkly repeated figures, even if he uses them in a very different way to minimalists. That B minor sonata K27 I mentioned on the other thread is a fine example of this.

Re Cage's S&I you obviously know the piece better than me: I did notice some recurrent themes that seemed to help hold the thing together in a traditional sense, and I was surprised at the length, far longer than the prepared piano sonatas etc.

Which prepared piano sonatas? There are any apart from those in the S+Is, surely?

Satie, yes I guess so. He saw things that few others have and like Scarlatti has a glint in his eye and a smile on his face most of the time. His Gnossiennes and Gymnopedies seem to be the most interesting works, though I've got hold of several others including some four hands ones, along with the wayward ballet Parade.

My reference to Satie was because he is the other western composer (along with Scarlatti) whose formal strategies were important to Cage in the S+Is

Ives gets my vote though for the real combination of the comic plus the intelligent: to mention one of the most startling pieces, the Variations on America for organ, but also the Concord sonata and last week I recorded the Second violin sonata with its critical little quotes of famous tunes in bizarre places, treated and cut off in unexpected ways. There's also a gravity of course, and indeed I don't claim to have answered all the questions here...

I adore Ives, but I don't see him as working in the same line, not at the moment anyway.

[FideLeo]

Just a point that seems to have been missed by many performers: - most Scarlatti sonatas belong in pairs. Isolating one is like recording a single movement of a Haydn sonata.

That's how the sonatas appear in the fair copies made and compiled by court music scribes.  But
nothing about the composer's intention in this matter is really known to us.  Haydn's sonatas,
of course, are different in this regard. 

[quintett op.57]

er, polyphony & scarlatti? nah, rarely....at least the stuff i have heard...his major contributions were mainly technical, more specifically keyboard technique, he was a dazzler in his day...his music is fun but rather light-weight imo, especially when you compare/consider his contemporary Bach.

This is a mistake to consider that developping technique is easy and of low interest and importance, especially when the composer uses new techniques in a way that pleases the listeners.
Scarlatti's genius is not limited to developping technique anyway.

[Ten thumbs]

That's how the sonatas appear in the fair copies made and compiled by court music scribes.  But
nothing about the composer's intention in this matter is really known to us.  Haydn's sonatas,
of course, are different in this regard. 

I believe you are quite wrong here. The evidence that the pairs were intended to be played together is quite substantial. For one thing many of his contemporaries and followers followed the same pattern. For another there are often quite obvious motivic connections. The situation was of course confused by Longi whose edition is more or less at random. As far as we know the manuscripts were copied with the authority of the composer.