9/11 (and other) mysteries

[DavidRoss]

In the words of the immortal Yogi Berra, "It's deja vu all over again!"  

[Lilas Pastia]

The questions are difficult, and don't think the answers provided here on this forum were at all effective.
We need the govt to step forward and answer them. Something they're resisting.

Basically you're asking government officials to indict themselves or their predecessors in office ?? And they resist ?? Like Nixon? and Clinton? How could that be  

[Scarpia]

Already responded to that on the last page, it's not a matter of precision timing etc....anyway, that's enough of this for me (got too much shit to do, and nothing is ever accomplished on internet forums!). The only way for true progress to occur on this is for a new investigation to happen.

"It's not a matter of precision timing etc."    How long the buildings take to fall is not a matter of precision timing?  What is it a matter of?

Can't be bothered to think about all of these lame investigations.  "The only way for true progress to occur on this is for a new investigation to happen."  What would be different about these hypothetical new investigations?

[bwv 1080]

Its funny how James has dodged or ignored every single objection posted

But anyone with good reasoning skills would not believe in 911 conspiracies to begin with, which goes to show that the 911 Truthers are of the same mold as creationists, holocaust deniers etc

[DavidRoss]

And in the immortal words of Dan Hicks, "How can I miss you if you won't go away?"

[Gurn Blanston]

What I find interesting is that if you ask questions about 9-11 you're often attacked by folks like yourself bwv1080. That's what you did right off. And lumping those who have problems believing what the govt is telling them considering their repeated acts of peculiar & questionable behaviour with creationists and holocaust deniers is a bit much.

Actually, it's NOT a bit much, it's right on point. Without the same sort of mindset, and with any sort of open mind whatsoever, you would see that the entire conspiracy thing rests solely on the shoulders of King Osama, who, BTW, looks remarkably like a dirty wizard, or a homeless Santa...



----------------
Listening to:
Concerto Copenhagen / Mortensen Brautigam (HIP) - Hob 18:11  Concerto in D for Keyboard and Orchestra 1st mvmt - Vivace

[Gurn Blanston]

Heh. For the record, I'm neither a creationist or a holocaust denier.

That's good to know. Sort of restores my faith in Bach fans...



----------------
Listening to:
Concerto Copenhagen / Mortensen Brautigam (HIP) - Hob 18:03 Concerto in F for Keyboard and Orchestra 2nd mvmt - Largo cantabile

[DavidRoss]

That's good to know. Sort of restores my faith in Bach fans...

Newman's a Bach fan....

[Gurn Blanston]

Newman's a Bach fan....

Precisely.



----------------
Listening to:
Concerto Copenhagen / Mortensen Brautigam (HIP) - Hob 18:02 Concerto in D for Keyboard and Orchestra 3rd mvmt - Allegro

[MishaK]

Already responded to that on the last page, it's not a matter of precision timing etc.

James, that's BS. I'm calling shenanigans on you. It is not at all a matter of precision timing. The conspiracy theorists allege the buildings collapsed in 9 seconds. There is plenty of footage that shows collapses *much* than that. You don't have to be precise at all. We don't have to argue whether it was 13 seconds, 14:34 or 16 seconds or whatever. Fact is they took much longer to come down than the conspiracy theorists allege. Fact is also that the debris seen on the footage falls much faster than the towers. Hence the towers are not in freefall, hence the towers were not blown up by explosives (which in any case would have been impossible to plant in total secrecy over a period of several months with 100,000 people going in and out every day). Agree? Yes, or no? Simple question. Stop weaseling out of the debate! Show us that you can still think.

[DavidRoss]

James, that's BS. I'm calling shenanigans on you. It is not at all a matter of precision timing. The conspiracy theorists allege the buildings collapsed in 9 seconds. There is plenty of footage that shows collapses *much* than that. You don't have to be precise at all. We don't have to argue whether it was 13 seconds, 14:34 or 16 seconds or whatever. Fact is they took much longer to come down than the conspiracy theorists allege. Fact is also that the debris seen on the footage falls much faster than the towers. Hence the towers are not in freefall, hence the towers were not blown up by explosives (which in any case would have been impossible to plant in total secrecy over a period of several months with 100,000 people going in and out every day). Agree? Yes, or no? Simple question. Stop weaseling out of the debate! Show us that you can still think.

Clearly you haven't engaged him on other topics before.  You are asking the impossible (assuming you mean to imply "think...rationally and coherently").   Those who espouse views like his on 9/11 thereby proclaim loudly for all to hear that they are lunatics incapable of rational thought.   Expecting him to be swayed by facts and rational analysis is like expecting Aunt Bertha's budgie to sing the SMP.

[Gurn Blanston]

Gurn, I take it you completely buy the govt's theory too. If what they say is true you don't find it hard to believe that no one was fired & demoted? And that they stone-walled an investigation for 2 years? And the invasion of Iraq doesnt make you skeptical based on the govts own definition of what happened where they themselves said not one Iraqi was involved? It doesnt tell you that another agenda is going on? And why are the great majority of victims relatives calling for a new investigation? Clearly they want the truth and theyre not believing what the govt is telling them. And the fact that the govt is continuing not to answer questions. Taking into account that the govt has lied so many times how can you believe or trust them.

No, I don't do theories. What I DO believe is that a group of Arab terrorists hijacked some planes and flew them into some buildings in New York and Washington, killing a shitload of people in the process. Now, beyond that, there are any number of things that happened afterwards that don't sit well with me. And if you want to call the 9/11 event a "godsend" for the NeoCons or whatever, I won't argue with you about that. They did manage to turn events into a way to get what they wanted after all. However, I absolutely draw the line at saying they caused it to happen. it's ludicrous, in theory and substance. I have (had?) a higher opinion of your intelligence than to think that you actually believe it yourself, I think you are just being provocative. As though we haven't had enough provocation here lately.



----------------
Listening to:
Norrköping SO / Parrott  Brautigam - Op 015 Concerto #1 in C for Pianoforte 1st mvmt - Allegro con brio

[MishaK]

15 seconds, 9 seconds, 12 seconds, 7 seconds. We'll never agree and I'm not a conspiracy theorist.

Those are weasel words. We do agree that 9.22 seconds is freefall speed. There are no two ways to do the calculations. And we do agree that the footage shows *much slower* collapses than 9.22 seconds, right? That much is not debatable whether or not we agree on the ultimate length of each collapse. If you can't agree on something this basic and incontrovertible we do have to wonder about your mental acuity and that won't be a personal attack but a medical fact.

There is plenty of evidence and reports of other explosions going off that day in those buildings too.

No there isn't. I was there. The whole time. There were certifiably no explosions.

If you watch how those buildings come down, they don't slow down they fall fast...and watch/compare how buildings come down in a controlled demo - they look almost exactly the same.

Have you ever seen footage of a controlled demolition of a 110 story building? No? Didn't think so. So you're comparing apples and oranges to begin with and otherwise basically talking out of your a$$. Secondly, there is plenty of detailed footage showing the building buckling around the floors that had been impacted. The resulting collapse is completely consistent with the floor supports giving way and the upper floors crushing the structure below. If bombs brought down the building, then what is causing the buckling RIGHT AT THOSE FLOORS WHERE THE UPPER STRUCTURE COLLAPSES ONTO THE REST.

Answer these questions:

1. What is causing the buckling clearly visible on the footage?

2. How were the buildings rigged with explosives (when it takes a good seven months to rig a 40-story tower for a controlled demolition and that is assuming it is unoccupied) while 100,000 people went in and out every day without anyone noticing?

3. How do you explain the total absence of leaks when to pull this off the entire NIST, FEMA, FDNY and thousands of WTC tenants and lower Manhattan eyewitnesses would have to have been bought off to stay silent? How come none of them leaked?

4. Who could have paid the *trillions* of dollars needed to shut up all the thousands of people involved in this mindboggling plot without any budget accountant anywhere having a conniption and going straight to the press?

[Gurn Blanston]

A fair response Gurn, but no need to add the stuff about my intelligence is there? I'm not trying to be provocative but I do find the subject deeply troubling that it raises a lot of questions. Can I ask you to tell me briefly why you completely rule out 'the possibility' considering how they've acted? It is because you can't conceive people being that evil?

Well, I put that in there because you have totally ignored what people have posted about it and carried on as though it never happened. I've never understood how a discussion can go that way.

I rule it out because the physical evidence screams otherwise. I wasn't there, but I saw it in real time on television due to getting the New York channels on my satellite. The "youtube" videos are authentic to what I saw. Not tampered with, not tricked up. I have also spent a moderate amount of time looking at various reports, not from the government but from various scientific institutions. I believe them, they jibe up with what I learned about physics since my earliest youth. Nothing I have heard so far from the Tin Hat Brigade makes any sense at all. I am not saying you are one of them, BTW, but you have allowed yourself to be swayed by political fervor into believing something that is beyond the realm of how the universe works.

People acting badly? Hell, this isn't a drop in the bucket of people acting badly. Certainly I can conceive it. I just am not going to jump on it when everything I know flies in the face of it. I'm nearly 60 years old, and beyond the spectacular aspect, this doesn't approach some of the things that have happened even in my lifetime, let alone the century I was born in.





----------------
Listening to:
Norrköping SO / Parrott  Brautigam - Op 015 Concerto #1 in C for Pianoforte 2nd mvmt - Largo - 3rd mvmt -  Rondo: Allegro

[MishaK]

Mensch you focus mainly on the buildings collapsing I notice, you don't have any solid answers about all of the other stuff I have asked, it's all related. It's clear to me that you have watched a lot of youtube debunk videos on the collapse. Certifiably no explosions? Hardly true. There are plenty of accounts from witnesses, firemen, media etc of other explosions taking place. Look it up. And yea, I have seen controlled demo vids, and when the towers do drop they fall in a similar fashion.  all this stuff about buckling? don't know, all i know is that when the buildings do finally drop they don't appear to slow down or come down in chunks, they fall fast with no resistence. and building 7 which was hardly struck? Oh but the 9-11 commission never acknowledged that. Rigged with explosives? Check out the Loose Change video there is some stuff in there about that (i'm sure there is more). And absense of leaks etc? Again no one was fired or demoted probably has something to with it, investigating was held off for a long long time etc, eye witnesses were ignored, no one swore under oath....and often with operations within intelligence etc. the left hand isn't aware of what the right hand is doing so to speak. It's all compartmentalized.

James, I 'focus on the buildings collapse' because I would like to take this one issue at a time. I can rebut any one of your other points conclusively as well, assuming you are not emotionally wedded to your position, which you sadly seem to be. If we don't do this one issue at a time we keep going in circles. You simply ignore every bit of evidence that is posted that contradicts your view. You don't engage. This is not a conversation.

Sadly, I have to conclude one of two things is true about you: either you are:

1. mentally incapable of processing the information provided (and I don't think that is the case);

or

2. you are too emotionally insecure to face facts and arguments that prove you wrong and show that you are not the deviously smart cookie who figured out that the government is corrupt, and you just cannot bear that reality.

This is not intended as an insult, but these are really the only two options we are left with as you avoid any rational debate of the substance.

You are basically arguing that the government faked a terrorist attack on the WTC using commercial airplanes, but these airplanes were just for show   because the government actually rigged the WTC (and superfluously WTC 7) with explosives which would have taken a good year or more to plant during non business hours, without any of the 100,000 occupants and visitors of the building ever noticing; meanwhile practically the *entire US scientific and media community* and the airlines involved were bought off by the government so to make sure that *nobody* deviated from the script and spilled the beans about the truth; in other words tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people were paid millions each by the government out of some nonexistent five trillion dollar budget that would have been needed for this operation and of all these hundreds of thousands not a single one leaked or rejected the deal outright. In other words, the 9-11 conspiracy was the world's largest employer. Basically, you're saying all of these hundreds of thousands who must have been involved are scum who would accept money to kill 3,000 of their fellow Americans and Gurn, scarpia and I are probably in on the deal too, right? And the only honest people here are you and three nincompoops who produced a potshot video full of incompetent scientific analysis which they distribute for personal profit, but no, they don't have a motive to be anything less than truthful. Oh, and also, the government blamed the whole thing on a bunch of Saudis, Yemenis and Egyptians because they want to attack Iraq?  

Now, you are telling us that this whole concoction makes more sense than twenty guys with boxcutters hijacking four planes and flying them into buildings because they believe they're on a mission from God? That's what you're saying, right? If so, congratulations, you're going to Disneyland!

Excuse me now while I go sharpen Occam's razor. It's been so busy around here, it's gone seriously dull.

[Scarpia]

Mensch you focus mainly on the buildings collapsing I notice, you don't have any solid answers about all of the other stuff I have asked, it's all related. It's clear to me that you have watched a lot of youtube debunk videos on the collapse. Certifiably no explosions? Hardly true. There are plenty of accounts from witnesses, firemen, media etc of other explosions taking place. Look it up. And yea, I have seen controlled demo vids, and when the towers do drop they fall in a similar fashion.  all this stuff about buckling? don't know, all i know is that when the buildings do finally drop they don't appear to slow down or come down in chunks, they fall fast with no resistence. and building 7 which was hardly struck? Oh but the 9-11 commission never acknowledged that. Rigged with explosives? Check out the Loose Change video there is some stuff in there about that (i'm sure there is more). And absense of leaks etc? Again no one was fired or demoted probably has something to with it, investigating was held off for a long long time etc, eye witnesses were ignored, no one swore under oath....and often with operations within intelligence etc. the left hand isn't aware of what the right hand is doing so to speak. It's all compartmentalized.

You repeating things like a parrot despite the fact that people have patiently explained to you that they are utterly wrong, and you have never acknowledged these explanations or put forward a reason to be skeptical of them.   

Back to explosions, there has never been any evidence of explosions in the collapse of the WTC.  Some people on the street heard a loud roar and they described it as an explosion.  The confused and contradictory statements of stunned observers to not constitute irrefutable evidence.  What is seen on the videos are jets of air coming from the floors that are being pancaked as the building collapses.  This is not evidence of an explosion, it is air being forced out the windows as the as that section of the building is crushed. 

Again, you parrot this statement of the building not slowing down.  As I mentioned above, collapsing at constant rate is not free-fall.   Free fall is continuously acceleration motion, in which the speed progressively increases.  If you watch the video you can see debris ejected from the building which falls to earth much faster than the progression of the collapse.  That is direct visual evidence that the progress of the collapse is much slower than free fall. 

[Scarpia]

Well, I put that in there because you have totally ignored what people have posted about it and carried on as though it never happened. I've never understood how a discussion can go that way.

I rule it out because the physical evidence screams otherwise. I wasn't there, but I saw it in real time on television due to getting the New York channels on my satellite. The "youtube" videos are authentic to what I saw. Not tampered with, not tricked up. I have also spent a moderate amount of time looking at various reports, not from the government but from various scientific institutions. I believe them, they jibe up with what I learned about physics since my earliest youth. Nothing I have heard so far from the Tin Hat Brigade makes any sense at all. I am not saying you are one of them, BTW, but you have allowed yourself to be swayed by political fervor into believing something that is beyond the realm of how the universe works.

People acting badly? Hell, this isn't a drop in the bucket of people acting badly. Certainly I can conceive it. I just am not going to jump on it when everything I know flies in the face of it. I'm nearly 60 years old, and beyond the spectacular aspect, this doesn't approach some of the things that have happened even in my lifetime, let alone the century I was born in.

This is a very sensible post, James, perhaps you should read it carefully.

[MishaK]

I never said any of that Mensch. You're just being a complete ass now. I'm just open to the possibility and thought of the some of the things 'I did' mention earlier. Nothing conclusive or 100%.

Yes, that *is* what you say. You try to keep it low key by saying you're 'open to the possibility' but you can't be serious about that. Look, the problem is this: if you say you're 'open to the possibility' of the towers having been rigged with explosives, then the rest necessarily logically follows from that premise. It is not possible to rig the towers with explosives without the whole thing mushrooming into a conspiracy of logistically and financially impossible dimensions.

Basic logic:

IF the towers were rigged with explosives,

THEN

- a team of demolition experts would have had to rig the place over the course of at least a year during non-business hours;

- all security personnel and occupants and visitors of the building who happened upon the operations, and all occupants who had become suspicious after noticing wet paint and re-plastered walls would have had to have been paid off;

- all the scientists who studied the wreckage and who would have immediately noticed the presence of residue from explosives would have had to have been paid off, as would have the entire scientific community which would have been smart enough to figure out that something was fishy;

- the FDNY and NYPD and other first responders would have had to have been in on the conspiracy because they would have seen the wiring in the process of the rescue or recovery operation;

- the media would have had to have been in on the conspiracy because supposedly, according to Loose Change lore, it is so 'easy' to see that the government story is bunk, so they would have necessarily been asking questions sooner or later, yet they didn't;

etc., etc. It can't be done any other way. Before you know it, you have an operation involving tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people. And then you're talking about trillions of dollars needed to pay them all off and keep them quiet and even then it is unlikely that none of them would have leaked. The buildings *cannot* have been rigged with explosives otherwise. Too many people would have found out too easily. If you had followed the logic of your premise you would have seen that the whole 'buildings were rigged with explosives' idea is patently bunk. Never mind that only a moron would go through all this trouble only to blame the operation on the wrong people.

[greg]

If/then statements? Are you a computer programmer?...

[MishaK]

If/then statements? Are you a computer programmer?...

Heavens, no! But I did take a logic class once (prerequisite for a philosophy major and also offered as an alternative for satisfying a math requirement at my alma mater).