Fair prices for music?

[Harry]

Where did you find Koopman's Bach cantatas set at a good price?  The individual volumes in the US are $50 each!   I decided to be content with Leusink, who actually did a great job with the cantatas imo.

But anyway I really wanted Koopman, for just nailing every element but they seemed to go oop with no economical box set-- AND YOU'VE FOUND IT MAN! AWESOME!

400,- Euro's on JPC de

Edit: The question has already been answered Anyway I consider the price of this box a bargain, considering the original price.

[Harry]

Harry - I just have two discs of this composer's music, chamber works (on CPO & MDG) - really enjoy; but I've not heard the Symphonies so will be looking forward to your comments.  BTW - where is this box available?  Dave 

Of course JPC de Dave! Though not cheap, about 70 euro's, but its worth every penny.

[jlaurson]

It has a good price....

Ya'know... I'm almost GLAD it costs >300,-.

We've totally lost our bearings of what music, performing it, recording it et al. DOES and SHOULD cost. That which does not cost anything also starts losing value. We can't expect to experience live music, new music, new interpretations, and then only buy old shit (even if it is GREAT old shit) that's been recycled for the umpteenth time at cents to the dollar.

Music at that level is an absolute luxury product and for our societies to continue to afford it, we need to be willing to pay a price for it... or else be willing to give it up. Like we did with quality journalism that we, as modern western societies, have apparently decided to give up.  

Nothing made me more sick than those classical nerds who would come to Tower Records once a year, complain how our selection was getting ever smaller, and then decide not to buy a CD after all, because it cost more than $8,- (or, as once truly, actually happened, drive to a store 15 miles away to save one dollar and fifty cents).

[DavidW]

Well I think it's going to get worse before it gets better.  The music industry is in crisis, and I don't think that selling digital downloads will be the answer either.  The prices go down, but eventually there is so little profit to be made that people will stop bothering altogether.

[Coopmv]

Well I think it's going to get worse before it gets better.  The music industry is in crisis, and I don't think that selling digital downloads will be the answer either.  The prices go down, but eventually there is so little profit to be made that people will stop bothering altogether.

The music industry has been in crisis even before NAPSTER first made its appearance.  Colin Davis in fact made a very grim prognosis for the future of classical music a few years back ...

[jlaurson]

Well I think it's going to get worse before it gets better.  The music industry is in crisis, and I don't think that selling digital downloads will be the answer either.  The prices go down, but eventually there is so little profit to be made that people will stop bothering altogether.

People will still buy... that's not the problem. Nor are downloads, I should think... because they are usually a fair price for the value. (Distribution and packaging cost almost as much as the performers, when divided by sales-numbers.) But the loss of the price-value relationship, that might become problematic.

And that Colin Davis allegedly predicted some end of classical music... well, perhaps Alzheimer's taking its toll. Wasn't aware that performers, not just 2nd rate hacks who earn their money predicting the Death of Classical music every year, for the last 20 years, are playing Wannabe-Kassandra, too. And isn't he, Sir Colin, too closely connected to the spectacularly successful LSO live label to be taken seriously saying something like that? Certainly live classical music is striving... audiences increasing in most places... etc.

[Harry]

Ya'know... I'm almost GLAD it costs >300,-.

We've totally lost our bearings of what music, performing it, recording it et al. DOES and SHOULD cost. That which does not cost anything also starts losing value. We can't expect to experience live music, new music, new interpretations, and then only buy old shit (even if it is GREAT old shit) that's been recycled for the umpteenth time at cents to the dollar.

Music at that level is an absolute luxury product and for our societies to continue to afford it, we need to be willing to pay a price for it... or else be willing to give it up. Like we did with quality journalism that we, as modern western societies, have apparently decided to give up.  

Nothing made me more sick than those classical nerds who would come to Tower Records once a year, complain how our selection was getting ever smaller, and then decide not to buy a CD after all, because it cost more than $8,- (or, as once truly, actually happened, drive to a store 15 miles away to save one dollar and fifty cents).

Whats bugging you, Professor?

[Antoine Marchand]

Ya'know... I'm almost GLAD it costs >300,-.

We've totally lost our bearings of what music, performing it, recording it et al. DOES and SHOULD cost. That which does not cost anything also starts losing value. We can't expect to experience live music, new music, new interpretations, and then only buy old shit (even if it is GREAT old shit) that's been recycled for the umpteenth time at cents to the dollar.

Music at that level is an absolute luxury product and for our societies to continue to afford it, we need to be willing to pay a price for it... or else be willing to give it up. Like we did with quality journalism that we, as modern western societies, have apparently decided to give up.  

Nothing made me more sick than those classical nerds who would come to Tower Records once a year, complain how our selection was getting ever smaller, and then decide not to buy a CD after all, because it cost more than $8,- (or, as once truly, actually happened, drive to a store 15 miles away to save one dollar and fifty cents).

I don't recognize in this case your usually reasonable perspective, Jens. Probably, it's because you are a part of the cultural industry and, therefore, you can't be impartial. I can understand that.

But clearly these specific recordings are not being issued for the first time, which is dramatically important in matter of costs. Actually, more than a half of them was firstly produced on Erato, then reissued on Challenge (to continue the Koopman's project) and now included in this new box set.  Obviously, the costs of production should be largely covered at this point of the time and, as you know, the costs to produce digital copies are currently very, very cheap. That's a fact.

I have never thought about music like a luxury, i. e., like something expensive which is pleasant to have but not necessary. On the contrary, for me it is an essential food for the soul, like some books or movies. Just for that reason, I have paid at least USD $50 -not an average price, certainly- for every one of the 13 volumes of this integral that I have bought until now.

Finally, I don't see the relationship between an active musical life and expensive recordings (excepted the snobbism, which I am sure is not your case). Especially when the benefits of the recordings never have been mainly for the musicians and today it's easy to copy exactly any disc in some minutes at your own home. If you don't see those facts, you are not understanding the new status of the intellectual property in the modern world.

[ChamberNut]

Ya'know... I'm almost GLAD it costs >300,-.

We've totally lost our bearings of what music, performing it, recording it et al. DOES and SHOULD cost. That which does not cost anything also starts losing value. We can't expect to experience live music, new music, new interpretations, and then only buy old shit (even if it is GREAT old shit) that's been recycled for the umpteenth time at cents to the dollar.

Music at that level is an absolute luxury product and for our societies to continue to afford it, we need to be willing to pay a price for it... or else be willing to give it up. Like we did with quality journalism that we, as modern western societies, have apparently decided to give up.  

Nothing made me more sick than those classical nerds who would come to Tower Records once a year, complain how our selection was getting ever smaller, and then decide not to buy a CD after all, because it cost more than $8,- (or, as once truly, actually happened, drive to a store 15 miles away to save one dollar and fifty cents).

So what you are saying is that classical music is only for the "elite".

[jlaurson]

These specific recordings are not being issued for the first time, which is dramatically important in matter of costs...

True... but then these are not recordings that have paid multiple times over their original production costs. I wonder if they would have broken even, had they not had sponsorships and the like. And they are not re-issued as much as they are being collected in one box for the first time. (The re-issues, a little pricey, I admit, are being put out on single discs.) The very fact that Erato jumped off the Bach Cantata wagon (as did Archiv) shows how difficult such projects with a good chance (low risk) of a reasonable return. And we cannot, and should not, rely on people recording, publishing, producing music out of sheer enthusiasm... these things do have to be paid for. Releasing these recordings at $400,- is actually a really good deal if you connect it to the cost of the making of 80 hours of music, 800 hours of recording sessions, perhaps 35.000 hours of highly qualified labor that all went into this project. (Obviously these are extremely rough estimates... but not so off-the-rocker as to not give an idea of what's behind these discs... from cover designer to music librarian.)

Only money (profit, remuneration, whatever) keeps the creative arts going, just as it keeps tomato growers going. Money is the reason Beethoven wrote music, it's the reason Mozart wrote music, it's the reason Haydn wrote music, it's the reason Carlos Kleiber recorded music, and it's the reason why people make playing natural horn their profession.

I have never thought about music like a luxury, i. e., like something expensive which is pleasant to have but not necessary.

120 fully able people choosing to devote their entire life to one musical instrument so as to perfect it in order to perform in a rendition of a symphony... just for one orchestra. Not engineering, not law, not farming... but crumpet or triangle or viola. Thousands and thousands of people all over every town in every rich country. Music at the exalted level we can enjoy it is the grandest and most wonderful luxury... and it has come a long, long, long way from the amateur and dilettante days of music (itself a culture to be mourned, not mocked).

And not only are these the fruits of our highly specialized, highly successful economies... they are also highly subsidized. If private or corporate or state funding were to be cut, maybe 20% of the orchestras would survive... and those not at nearly the qualitative levels they are at now. Every ticket of every symphony orchestra is underwritten by some outside funding. That's what I mean by luxury.

Finally, I don't see the relationship between an active musical life and expensive recordings (excepted the snobbism, which I am sure is not your case). Especially when the benefits of the recordings never have been mainly for the musicians and today it's easy to copy exactly any disc in some minutes at your own home. If you don't see those facts, you are not understanding the new status of the intellectual property in the modern world.

Not "expensive" recordings. Reasonably priced recordings. Recordings at a price it takes and costs to make them. Like the LSO live recordings. Their philosophy would be the answer to your question. It's the opposite of snobbism. It's the hope that artists continue to record... I don't want music to become museum piece. The Kleibers and Richters and Karajans and Beechams and Schnabels are all good and well and that... but it's dead music. It's very important dead music, but dead. For the industry--and by that I really mean the 'spirit of music as lived by breathing musicians'--to survive and renew itself constantly, it is important that recordings be made of new artists. Not to make a Brahms 4th that is "better" than Kleiber's, but because it is important that in 2009 musicians still put their ideas about that work (and/or about contemporary works) onto some form of medium with which they can share it with a wider audience.

I'm not ignorant of the ease with which one can steal. But that doesn't decrease the value of music, intrinsically. I can steal apples very easily, too, but that doesn't bring the actual price of apples down. I am merely belaboring the point (clumsily, apparently) that the awareness of VALUE and COST can be helpful in appreciating what some things are WORTH to us. Is music worth a few cents or is it worth more to us. Better now?

So what you are saying is that classical music is only for the "elite".

No, that is not what I say. I'm not saying: "To hell with Brilliant Classics". I think what they are doing is great in its own way. (I certainly am enjoying the benefits.) It is upon us to not let Brilliant ruin our own perception of that value-cost-worth triangulation. But if we start bitching and moaning about ever CD that costs $8,- instead of 20 cents, then maybe our expectations are clouded.

It's like supporting fair treatment of chickens--and then switching supermarkets because the eggs are cheaper at Safeway, after all.

[DavidW]

 

The music industry has been in crisis even before NAPSTER first made its appearance.  Colin Davis in fact made a very grim prognosis for the future of classical music a few years back ...

There is a book that I want to read that traces it back all the way to the 70s as the starting point.  I think it would be interesting to get a handle on it.

[DavidW]

not just 2nd rate hacks who earn their money predicting the Death of Classical music every year, for the last 20 years, are playing Wannabe-Kassandra, too.

Lebrecht?

[DavidW]

So what you are saying is that classical music is only for the "elite".

Well that $8 a cd for the average pricing of the Koopman set per cd is not that different from a fast food meal.  Even the poor eat fast food when they can eat bologna sandwiches and pasta at much lower price point(which is why we have health problems that we do but I digress).  So I don't think that reasonable pricing on cds is elitist or asking too much.  Heck 3 of those Koopman cds would buy you a taxi ride to your nearest airport.  The dollar is weak, we're not talking big bucks here.

[DavidW]

People will still buy... that's not the problem. Nor are downloads, I should think... because they are usually a fair price for the value. (Distribution and packaging cost almost as much as the performers, when divided by sales-numbers.) But the loss of the price-value relationship, that might become problematic.

Well actually that is the problem: people still buy... but not as much.  Cd sales have been on the decline since 2006, and digital downloads have not compensated for that decline, and in fact have already leveled out.  People are not buying music as much as they used to. 

But I just don't know where the bargain box set concept came from, because it seems to be tightly constrained to classical.  In pop we see the opposite-- the $1/song, and the cds sold in stores are now best ofs, both of which are offering less for less instead of more for less like we're seeing in classical.  It's kind of odd.

[ChamberNut]

But I just don't know where the bargain box set concept came from, because it seems to be tightly constrained to classical.  In pop we see the opposite-- the $1/song, and the cds sold in stores are now best ofs, both of which are offering less for less instead of more for less like we're seeing in classical.  It's kind of odd.

I think it's because of the "popularity" of pop music, is why they seem to charge more for less.  Ie. cashing in on that popularity.  10 years from now, they probably won't be able to give away a Kanye West CD, let alone sell for $1/song.

[DavidW]

I think it's because of the "popularity" of pop music, is why they seem to charge more for less.  Ie. cashing in on that popularity.  10 years from now, they probably won't be able to give away a Kanye West CD, let alone sell for $1/song.

Huh that makes sense.  You've thought it out man.  Either that or you're in the know.

[Coopmv]

Well actually that is the problem: people still buy... but not as much.  Cd sales have been on the decline since 2006, and digital downloads have not compensated for that decline, and in fact have already leveled out.  People are not buying music as much as they used to. 

But I just don't know where the bargain box set concept came from, because it seems to be tightly constrained to classical.  In pop we see the opposite-- the $1/song, and the cds sold in stores are now best ofs, both of which are offering less for less instead of more for less like we're seeing in classical.  It's kind of odd.

For non-classical music, the biggest problem was the super-rich recording contracts the artists were getting.  The likes of Janet Jackson and Mariah Carey were getting their $80-100MM contracts.  No wonder the record companies were losing money hand over fist.  I don't think classical music has ever been a high-margin business ...

[DavidW]

For non-classical music, the biggest problem was the super-rich recording contracts the artists were getting.  The likes of Janet Jackson and Mariah Carey were getting their $80-100MM contracts.  No wonder the record companies were losing money hand over fist.  I don't think classical music has ever been a high-margin business ...

Yeah it would be hard to find any money left over after paying off those contracts!

[Gurn Blanston]

For non-classical music, the biggest problem was the super-rich recording contracts the artists were getting.  The likes of Janet Jackson and Mariah Carey were getting their $80-100MM contracts.  No wonder the record companies were losing money hand over fist.  I don't think classical music has ever been a high-margin business ...

This is true, Stuart, however, classical never benefited from the full court press marketing machine that pop does. Classical has always sold itself, by word of mouth. So, a small market. And the record companies leave it at that and then complain because sales are poor. The money that we put into our genre doesn't get spent there, it goes to fund the stupidities of the pop music side of the fence. I'm not talking the music or artists, but the idiots who make the contracts with them. We are paying the price all round. Before Naxos came along, and then Brilliant even more so, you almost never saw any sort of 'sale' on classical. Now there is some price flexibility, but only to be tokenly competitive.

I am more than happy to pay a fair price for the music I want. But (possibly because of my arcane tastes) it almost never works out that way.



----------------
Listening to:
Joseph Haydn - Symphony No.48 - IV. Finale: Allegro

[Antoine Marchand]

I'm not ignorant of the ease with which one can steal. But that doesn't decrease the value of music, intrinsically. I can steal apples very easily, too, but that doesn't bring the actual price of apples down. I am merely belaboring the point (clumsily, apparently) that the awareness of VALUE and COST can be helpful in appreciating what some things are WORTH to us. Is music worth a few cents or is it worth more to us. Better now?

Just to clarify, Jens: I don't consider unfair or excessive the price of the Koopman's set. Even I will follow collecting the original volumes, although it will be rather expensive in absolute terms and by comparison. My point was simply that this was not a "bargain". One disc at EUR 6 is cheap; but when you need to purchase 67 discs in order to get that discount -paying EUR 400 for the whole package-, the terms "expensive" and "cheap" are more relative; as a simple thing of economies of scale...

Now it's too late here to express my opinion about the changes in the notion of intellectual property, a concept historically rather new in any case. I just will say that the concept of "robbery" applied to internet and the new technologies needs at least a detailed revision because it sets out serious problems in legal and economic aspects.