Mendelssohn vs. Wagner

[DavidW]

Well said Superhorn!

[Antoine Marchand]

Well said Superhorn!

I disagree, David.

This was well said:

What would have been really nice, extra special even, is if he had changed it for the better.... can't be argued.

You know that good things, when short, are twice as good.

[DavidW]

I disagree, David.

Oh sorry I meant specifically to

The comparison between him and Wagner is a bit unfair, because Wagner was almost entirely an opera composer (his non-operatic works are interesting but little-known), and Mendelssohn worked in virtually all forms. He wrote a couple of brief operas, but they're almost totally unknown.

Don't you think that's well said?

[Antoine Marchand]

Oh sorry I meant specifically to
Don't you think that's well said?

Perfect. 

[Antoine Marchand]

Wagner scares me.

[Chaszz]

Mendelssohn was a great composer, but nowhere near the genius that Wagner was.

Racism by blacks or others, directed at whites, comes under a lot of criticism; e.g., "Oh, I guess it's OK if blacks [or Jews] make racist statements, but not whites." This is valid criticism, up to a point. The point being that over the course of history, and especially since gunpowder was invented, gentile whites overwhelmingly caused widespread misery among non-whites and white minorities including Jews. To give only two examples, native Americans committed suicide rather than be slaves of Columbus, and Cortez' war against the Aztecs was incredibly bloody and gory. These two examples barely scratch the surface of the myriad brutal injustices done against other peoples by white Christians, including slavery and the Holocaust. It can be argued that European-based oil companies causing widespread environmental damage in third-world countries, which they seek to evade responsibility for, are continuing this pattern in the present. This background provides some explanation of why some whites continue to feel guilty and are accepting of racist criticism by blacks and Jews. Perhaps not morally completely justified, but nearly so and certainly to be expected under the circumstances.  

I am not trying to start a race war here, but felt that Mr. Des Prez' comments needed to be responded to and put in perspective.

[DavidW]

Wagner scares me.

But he is a little short and stumpy.  Not too intimidating and less he bites.

[Antoine Marchand]

I'm not alone, Dave:

http://www.youtube.com/v/sx7XNb3Q9Ek

[Gurn Blanston]

Mendelssohn was a great composer, but nowhere near the genius that Wagner was.

Racism by blacks or others, directed at whites, comes under a lot of criticism; e.g., "Oh, I guess it's OK if blacks [or Jews] make racist statements, but not whites." This is valid criticism, up to a point. The point being that over the course of history, and especially since gunpowder was invented, gentile whites overwhelmingly caused widespread misery among non-whites and white minorities including Jews. To give only two examples, native Americans committed suicide rather than be slaves of Columbus, and Cortez' war against the Aztecs was incredibly bloody and gory. These two examples barely scratch the surface of the myriad brutal injustices done against other peoples by white Christians, including slavery and the Holocaust. It can be argued that European-based oil companies causing widespread environmental damage in third-world countries, which they seek to evade responsibility for, are continuing this pattern in the present. This background provides some explanation of why some whites continue to feel guilty and are accepting of racist criticism by blacks and Jews. Perhaps not morally completely justified, but nearly so and certainly to be expected under the circumstances.  

I am not trying to start a race war here, but felt that Mr. Des Prez' comments needed to be responded to and put in perspective.

All true, chaszz. Although two things: 1> not everyone dislikes Wagner because of racist backlash. Speaking for myself, I prefer to listen to music that doesn't put me to sleep as soon as the (always excellent) overture or prelude is done, and 2> everyone here already knows that JdP is a trolling (non-euphemistic noun deleted by moderator), so no one but himself takes anything he says seriously.



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Listening to:
Galfetti / Fasolis - Hummel Sonata in C for Fortepiano & Mandolin Op 37 1st mvmt

[Keemun]

I voted for Mendelssohn.  I wouldn't place him at the top of my favorite composers list, but voting in this odd match-up, he wins.   

[Chaszz]

All true, chaszz. Although two things: 1> not everyone dislikes Wagner because of racist backlash. Speaking for myself, I prefer to listen to music that doesn't put me to sleep as soon as the (always excellent) overture or prelude is done, and 2> everyone here already knows that JdP is a trolling (non-euphemistic noun deleted by moderator), so no one but himself takes anything he says seriously.




----------------
Listening to:
Galfetti / Fasolis - Hummel Sonata in C for Fortepiano & Mandolin Op 37 1st mvmt

Aw, and such a pretty icon. Plus he has Wagner's importance nailed perfectly.

There are many of us whom Wagner does not put to sleep, quite the opposite... each to his own.

[Gurn Blanston]

Aw, and such a pretty icon. Plus he has Wagner's importance nailed perfectly.

There are many of us whom Wagner does not put to sleep, quite the opposite... each to his own.

Yeah, I always think highly of people who agree with me, too, even when they are... what they are. I'm sure you remember JdP from back in the day when the 3 of us posted on the Beethoven forum. He was Op 131 back then, and not nearly as aggravating as he is now. I guess true trollishness is something you need to grow into.

Yes, and I don't begrudge you that. It is the all out idolatry that puts me off. For god's sake, he is just a slightly above average musician and megalomaniac. Let's keep things in perspective, shall we?



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Listening to:
The Music Collection - Hummel Sonata in Eb for Piano & Viola Op 5 #3 1st mvmt

[knight66]

There was nothing slightly above average about his megalomaniac tendencies. He was exceptional in that department.

I would vote Wagner, Mendelssohn is fine for a while, but not enough heft for me.

Mike

[Ten thumbs]

Wagner did not writer any decent piano music and his impact on keyboard writing was practically nil. Much the same can be said of the sphere of chamber music. Both composers created new orchestral textures. Heaviness is not required for greatness.

[knight66]

Heaviness is not required for greatness.

Indeed not. Mahatma Gandhi was very light.

Mike

[Chaszz]

Yeah, I always think highly of people who agree with me, too, even when they are... what they are. I'm sure you remember JdP from back in the day when the 3 of us posted on the Beethoven forum. He was Op 131 back then, and not nearly as aggravating as he is now. I guess true trollishness is something you need to grow into.

Yes, and I don't begrudge you that. It is the all out idolatry that puts me off. For god's sake, he is just a slightly above average musician and megalomaniac. Let's keep things in perspective, shall we?



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Listening to:
The Music Collection - Hummel Sonata in Eb for Piano & Viola Op 5 #3 1st mvmt

I have been listening all afternoon to Tannhauser on (NYC FM radio station) WQXR.com's Saturday Afternoon at the Opera. Not only the beauty of the music but intense happiness washes over me, as it often does with Wagner, wholly unconnected with his to-me often-absurd plots. Such happiness is inexplicable but not to be sneezed at. I wish I could share/export it.

Perhaps those who don't get Wagner might consider re-trying Tannhauser and Lohengrin, which are prior to his full-blown theories and tend to be a little more compact and more filled with wall-to-wall beautiful music than the later ones, which I do admit flag occasionally (except for Meistersinger).

Opus 131 from the Beethoven site, hmm? Interesting.  

[rappy]

Just watched Tristan und Isolde under Barenboim (Bayreuth) on DVD and I don't know if I've ever had such a pale face as when the last act was over.
Terrifying music, listening to it is like consuming a good deal of extremly powerful, mind-altering drugs. The good thing is, there are no adverse effects despite remove the scales from ones eyes.

Mendelssohn wrote beautiful, genuine music, but unable to compete with Wagner's archivements...

[knight66]

Yes, although there are dry patches of Wagner; the above puts the position nicely. I have often suggested that T&I is like a narcotic.

Mike

[karlhenning]

. . . For god's sake, he is just a slightly above average musician and way above average megalomaniac. Let's keep things in perspective, shall we?

Proposed emendation.

[karlhenning]

Heaviness is not required for greatness.

Now, do you suppose that Michael J. Fox's use of "heavy" in the Back to the Future trilogy is essentially omaggio a Wagner?