Beethoven in Period Performances

Started by Que, April 07, 2007, 07:34:50 AM

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Florestan

Quote from: karlhenning on November 12, 2015, 08:29:59 AM
The "Farewell" Encore . . . .

Oh, no, not at all... the "debut" encore --- she at the piano and my son at the violin will be at least as good and famous as Haskil / Szeryng or Oistrakh / Oborin or Szigeti / Arrau...


Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: Florestan on November 12, 2015, 07:34:18 AM
Hah!

That's nothing. Busoni hated to perform at parties, but once he was so badgered to play after a dinner that he sat down at the piano and played all five Beethoven late sonatas.

I don't know if he played an encore.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Florestan

Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on November 12, 2015, 08:47:26 AM
That's nothing. Busoni hated to perform at parties, but once he was so badgered to play after a dinner that he sat down at the piano and played all five Beethoven late sonatas.

Is there any recording of that?  :D
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Leo K.

#823


It's been many years since I heard Gardiner's Beethoven. I wasn't a fan. Yet, upon hearing this wonderful recording, I decided a re-listen to Gardiner's account of the symphonies is in order.

amw

#824
Are there any period instrument versions of the Piano Concertos that use Beethoven's cadenzas instead of relying on the (generally inferior) improvisation skills of the (20th-21st century) pianist?

(I mean, Beethoven literally wrote his cadenzas as a guide to how to improvise your own for other pianists of his day who were less skilled. Though not exactly contemporary with the concertos themselves, they're only a decade or so later, and I'd have thought they'd be much more historically accurate than the improvisations of a contemporary pianist who didn't grow up with that tradition at all.)

Que

Good question... I know Schoonderwoerd didn't use Beethoven's cadenzas, neither did Van Immerseel....

Q

Florestan

Quote from: Que on December 13, 2015, 08:22:34 AM
Schoonderwoerd

If you ask me, his Beethoven´s PC series is the worst recording of anything, by anyone, ever.  ;D ;D ;D
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

kishnevi

Beethoven's cadenzas are used in this set, per the track listings
[asin]B000090WCD[/asin]
I am posting this issue because 1)I have it  and 2)It is the most complete set (Choral Fantasy is not included on the alternate reissues)

(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: Florestan on December 13, 2015, 12:00:28 PM
If you ask me, his Beethoven´s PC series is the worst recording of anything, by anyone, ever.  ;D ;D ;D

Hallelujah! someone's got their ears on straight!  :) ;D :laugh:
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

SimonNZ

#829
Quote from: Florestan on December 13, 2015, 12:00:28 PM
If you ask me, his Beethoven´s PC series is the worst recording of anything, by anyone, ever.  ;D ;D ;D

I thought they were a fascinating exercise. They exposed as many limitations to the idea as there were positive aspects, and was attempted with intelligence and sincerity, not as the more usual enfant terrible. They made a good provocative think-piece which helped me clarify what I like and expect from HIP Beethoven and why, even if I never need to hear them again in the near future.

Of course they shouldn't be anyone's first or only Beethoven PC set... and I was shaking my head and laughing all the way through the Emperor.

(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: SimonNZ on December 13, 2015, 02:19:34 PM
Of course they shouldn't be anyone's first or only Beethoven PC set... and I was shaking my head and laughing all the way through the Emperor.

Sounds like said Emperor has no clothes.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Brian

Quote from: Florestan on December 13, 2015, 12:00:28 PM
If you ask me, his Beethoven´s PC series is the worst recording of anything, by anyone, ever.  ;D ;D ;D

Back when GMG first got into that Schoonderwoerd series, I bought in whole-heartedly - it's a revelation! it's so new and fresh and exciting! - but after that excitement wore off, a year or two passed, and I listened again, my reaction was more like horror. Brutally ugly and (given the tiny size of the "orchestra") historically so inaccurate as to be useless.

amw

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 13, 2015, 12:01:47 PM
Beethoven's cadenzas are used in this set, per the track listings
Thanks for the heads up. Norrington's Beethoven Symphonies are definitely my cuppa (except the last quarter of the 9th to an extent) and at some point in the future, most likely when my Qobuz subscription expires/the site goes bankrupt, I'll probably invest in the full symphonies+concertos set. Listening to No. 1 now.

Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on December 13, 2015, 02:02:21 PM
Hallelujah! someone's got their ears on straight!  :) ;D :laugh:
I've listened to the Schoonderwoerd set (or most of it anyway). My conclusions were that the sound quality was really good.

Mandryka

#833
Quote from: Brian on December 13, 2015, 07:04:10 PM
(given the tiny size of the "orchestra") historically so inaccurate .

You may just be wrong about that.

Have you read Stefan Weinzierl's book? I think he's a well regarded scholar. His was the scholarship which influenced Schoonderwoerd the most.  (I don't read German so I can't read the book.)

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Florestan

Quote from: Mandryka on December 14, 2015, 12:18:29 AM
You may just be wrong about that.

Have you read Stefan Weinzierl's book?  (I don't read German so I can't)

Is there any reliable evidence (evidence, not speculation) for the concertos being ever performed one-voice-per-part?
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Florestan

Quote from: amw on December 13, 2015, 11:35:54 PM
I've listened to the Schoonderwoerd set (or most of it anyway). My conclusions were that the sound quality was really good.

The sound quality is good indeed, too good, actually, since it´s cleverly engineered to make the string quintet sound like a full orchestra --- and this in itself is bad enough, first because it is an unnatural sound and secondly, if Schoonwoerd really believes that the concertos were in fact octets or nonets, why the need to make them sound grander than that? The whole concept is so fuzzy and farfetched...
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

North Star

Quote from: Florestan on December 14, 2015, 12:57:07 AM
The sound quality is good indeed, too good, actually, since it´s cleverly engineered to make the string quintet sound like a full orchestra --- and this in itself is bad enough, first because it is an unnatural sound and secondly, if Schoonwoerd really believes that the concertos were in fact octets or nonets, why the need to make them sound grander than that? The whole concept is so fuzzy and farfetched...
Cleverly engineered, or just recorded in an appropriately sized room with a period fortepiano that isn't too loud?
"Everything has beauty, but not everyone sees it." - Confucius

My photographs on Flickr

Florestan

Quote from: North Star on December 14, 2015, 04:05:35 AM
Cleverly engineered, or just recorded in an appropriately sized room with a period fortepiano that isn't too loud?

The "Emperor" was premiered at Gewandhaus. This fact alone should give Schoonderwoerd pause.  ;D
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

North Star

Quote from: Florestan on December 14, 2015, 04:13:11 AM
The "Emperor" was premiered at Gewandhaus. This fact alone should give Schoonderwoerd pause.  ;D
Ah yes, I was thinking of No. 4, premiered at Prince Lobkowitz's home.
"Everything has beauty, but not everyone sees it." - Confucius

My photographs on Flickr

Florestan

Quote from: North Star on December 14, 2015, 04:55:09 AM
Ah yes, I was thinking of No. 4, premiered at Prince Lobkowitz's home.

"Home" might be too misleading a term for what is really a palace featuring a dedicated concert hall.  :D

On that event the Coriolan Overture and the Fourth Symphony were also premiered. Would Schoonderwoerd make the case for them being played with the same tiny forces, I wonder? Or for Eroica, premiered in the same venue?

However one would consider the matter, Schoonderwoerd doesn´t have much of a case for his approach.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini