Beethoven in Period Performances

Started by Que, April 07, 2007, 07:34:50 AM

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FideLeo

Quote from: Harry on November 17, 2007, 04:40:30 AM
Yo, Stax rules.
Still have a top model at home.
Sadly I am forbidden to use these fine headphones.
Its time that I sell them I guess.

Why the forbiddance?  That they may hurt your hearing?
Yes, listening to stax phones can be very addictive.  :D

Since my other, more expensive model (3030) is at home like
yours, I only have the portable one (SR-001) with me right now -
very sensual sound compared to the etched transparency
conveyed by more expensive models....

Back on topic, check Beethoven's own metronome marks (if any)
to have an idea of "reference" HIP tempi for this music.   

Quote from: Que on November 17, 2007, 04:41:03 AM
Before the music starts, I've noticed some breathing as well, but not during.

OK that's breathing IN the recording - isn't that what has been talked about?   ???

HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

George

Quote from: Que on November 17, 2007, 06:43:19 AM
NOT disputing fl. traverso, just explaining why I said that I didn't notice breathing... 8)
I find the sound of musicians taking a deep breath in the split second before the music sets in, such a regular occurrence in recordings that it didn't cross my mind.

Q

Sometimes I notice some weird noises on low-quality samples. What bitrate did you use?

PerfectWagnerite

Quote from: George on November 17, 2007, 06:46:26 AM
Sometimes I notice some weird noises on low-quality samples. What bitrate did you use?
I noticed you are a Silver Subscriber. You happy about your membership?

George

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on November 17, 2007, 07:07:21 AM
I noticed you are a Silver Subscriber. You happy about your membership?

Indeed, I am happy to be contributing to a place that brings me so much happiness.  :)

Harry

Quote from: George on November 17, 2007, 07:23:22 AM
Indeed, I am happy to be contributing to a place that brings me so much happiness.  :)

Good answer that George me lad....... :)

longears

There've been so many "HIP Beethoven" threads lately I seem to have missed some.  Que's review of the Brüggen symphony cycle prompted me to do a little comparative listening of my own.  I still prefer it, hands down, across the board, to the other HIP original instrument cycles I've heard (Snorrington's first, Hogwood, Gardiner).  I like the transparency, the well-judged tempos (generally brisk but not breakneck), Brüggen's subtle accelerado and rubato, the instrumental balance, and especially the saucy, spicy sound of the instruments themselves, especially the strings and winds (natch!).  No other set in my experience remotely approaches the piquancy of this sound, and no other original instrument set is so consistently satisfying to my taste.  Also, I have no issues with the recorded sound--it's good enough not to call attention to itself.

95% of my LvB symphony listening is to 3-7, and to me there are no weaknesses among these works in Brüggen's set. Unlike Que, I find the 5th particularly exciting, and his comments on the 6th--especially in relation to his praise for Weil's 6th--baffle me, as Weil's 6th seems in many places a close copy of Brüggen's but lacks the spiciness that makes Brüggen's so special.  There's an inexplicable quality these two largely share due mostly to the tempos chosen and their transparency which I enjoy very much.  In relation to Beethoven's program they convey an attitude of harmonious immersion in nature, a basking in soulful satisfaction with the rightness of the natural world--unlike, say, Böhm's famous 6th, which seems to reflect a lamentably stereotypical German march as a tourist in the natural world, or Hogwood's cross country race!  (I cannot fairly comment on Brüggen's 9th, as I've not heard it ages, but will bump it up in my listening queue for the future.)

My other favorite cycle is Zinman's--historically informed but with modern instruments.  This, too, is so lively and transparent across the board that it captivates me as few others do.  On a similar thread there was some disagreement over considering Zinman's Beethoven as HIP.  I think it is, in the best sense of the term: historically informed performance--not an effort to replicate a period performance, but rather to blow off the accretion of nearly two centuries of Romantic bloat and get back to something more like what Beethoven seems to have had in mind, including tempos more suitable for a lighter weight and more lithe ensemble than the haters of HIP are wont to prefer.

Que

Quote from: longears on November 17, 2007, 08:50:29 AM
There've been so many "HIP Beethoven" threads lately I seem to have missed some.  Que's review of the Brüggen symphony cycle prompted me to do a little comparative listening of my own. 

Longears, it's good to have another view!
And I found it an interesting one and a good read as well. :)

I'll certainly revisit the Brüggen and Weil Pastorales soon...just to see if I've missed something. 8)

Q

longears

Listened to Brüggen's 9th earlier today and loved it.  Spicy, impassioned, lively!  The first tutti is a bit surprising, for this is the only performance I've heard that doesn't hammer the leading edge with brass and violins going all out.  It sounds a bit strange at first, somewhat flabby, but Brüggen builds to the climax rather than starting with it, and the approach works when you give it a chance.

I really don't understand why this cycle is not better known and loved, for I think it's head and shoulders above the usual supect British HIPsters, all of whom sound too polished and bland to excite my sonic taste buds.  Different strokes for different folks, I guess.  Or perhaps Brüggen is better known and loved in continental Europe, and just doesn't get nearly as much exposure in the US & UK as Gardiner, et al...?

Bogey

Quote from: longears on November 17, 2007, 01:47:54 PM

I really don't understand why this cycle is not better known and loved, for I think it's head and shoulders above the usual supect British HIPsters, all of whom sound too polished and bland to excite my sonic taste buds.  Different strokes for different folks, I guess.  Or perhaps Brüggen is better known and loved in continental Europe, and just doesn't get nearly as much exposure in the US & UK as Gardiner, et al...?

Possibly to do with availability David?  I checked and his recordings of LvB seem to OOP at this time.  He also seems to have less than 50 recordings (could be very wrong here) even listed for any works when pulled as a conductor.  However, your conversation with Que does make me want to very much hunt down a recording..
There will never be another era like the Golden Age of Hollywood.  We didn't know how to blow up buildings then so we had no choice but to tell great stories with great characters.-Ben Mankiewicz

Bogey

Hmmm....$80 for a used Brüggen symphony cycle (5 discs) on Amazon.  $90 for a brand new set.
There will never be another era like the Golden Age of Hollywood.  We didn't know how to blow up buildings then so we had no choice but to tell great stories with great characters.-Ben Mankiewicz

PerfectWagnerite

Quote from: Bogey on November 18, 2007, 06:46:18 AM
Hmmm....$80 for a used Brüggen symphony cycle (5 discs) on Amazon.  $90 for a brand new set.

Personally I wouldn't pay eight bucks for it, let alone eighty bucks. Brüggen is such a snooze. I have 1 and 3 and they are not even competitive in the HIP group compared to Gardiner, Hogwood, etc., let alone alongside other more traditional interpretations. I just don't hear what the fuss is about this guy other than his cycle is somewhat hard to get. His Schubert cycle is terrible (the 9th is unlistenably bad) and his much raved about Haydn London Symphonies set is no better. Stay away.

longears

I would take the dismissal above as a strong recommendation--but then pefectwaggie is one of my touchstones, almost as reliable as Amazon's "Sante Fe Listener" for taste completely opposite my own.  Brüggen's LvB 3 is one of the high points of the cycle--I don't know of a livelier, more exhilarating performance, HIP or square!

€42 from jpc  On the other hand, Bill, Gardiner is perfectly fine if you're looking for a HIP cycle and is much more readily available and affordable.  I'd take it over Hogwood, but others may disagree.  In fact, I've Gardiner's Pastoral on right now, cranked up to concert volume and occupying 83.68% of my attention, and I'm enjoying it very much.

Que

Quote from: longears on November 18, 2007, 07:55:45 AM
I would take the dismissal above as a strong recommendation--but then pefectwaggie is one of my touchstones, almost as reliable as Amazon's "Sante Fe Listener" for taste completely opposite my own.  Brüggen's LvB 3 is one of the high points of the cycle--I don't know of a livelier, more exhilarating performance, HIP or square!

€42 from jpc  On the other hand, Bill, Gardiner is perfectly fine if you're looking for a HIP cycle and is much more readily available and affordable.  I'd take it over Hogwood, but others may disagree.  In fact, I've Gardiner's Pastoral on right now, cranked up to concert volume and occupying 83.68% of my attention, and I'm enjoying it very much.

I agree with Longears on Brüggen's Eroïca - I think it's the best of the bunch, with the 7th & 8th close behind. And in fact I prefer the whole cycle to Gardiner's, haven't heard Hogwood.

Q

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: longears on November 18, 2007, 07:55:45 AM
I would take the dismissal above as a strong recommendation--but then pefectwaggie is one of my touchstones, almost as reliable as Amazon's "Sante Fe Listener" for taste completely opposite my own.  Brüggen's LvB 3 is one of the high points of the cycle--I don't know of a livelier, more exhilarating performance, HIP or square!

;D  I could have written that myself. ;)  I don't have the Brüggen symphonies yet, want 'em. I did get the violin concerto with Zehetmair just last week and am very pleased with it.

Quote€42 from jpc  On the other hand, Bill, Gardiner is perfectly fine if you're looking for a HIP cycle and is much more readily available and affordable.  I'd take it over Hogwood, but others may disagree.  In fact, I've Gardiner's Pastoral on right now, cranked up to concert volume and occupying 83.68% of my attention, and I'm enjoying it very much.

I have Gardiner, Hogwood, Norrington and Goodman on period instruments. To me, Gardiner has the best playing, almost too good! Hogwood may well be the most "authentic" of the bunch, although if the Goodman set had halfway decent recording engineering it would certainly be a contender. If I was looking to rec a set that was a sure thing, it would be Gardiner. :)

I also agree with your assessment of Zinman. It (and MacKerras/EMI) are my favorite modern instrument/HIP style cycles.

8)

----------------
Now playing: Orchestra of the 18th Century / Brüggen Zehetmair - Op 061 Concerto in D for Violin & Orchestra 2nd mvmt - Larghetto
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

longears

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 18, 2007, 08:10:32 AM
I did get the violin concerto with Zehetmair just last week and am very pleased with it.
Now playing: Orchestra of the 18th Century / Brüggen Zehetmair - Op 061 Concerto in D for Violin & Orchestra 2nd mvmt - Larghetto
Love that recording, Gurn--my fave, along with Hahn and Heifetz, though I need to give the Zinman/Tetzlaff another spin or two--it didn't grab me as immediately as Zinman/Bronfmann's piano concertos did.

I agree, too, that Gardiner's ORR playing is "almost too good."  It's so damned pretty and perfect that it's the ideal HIP performance for those who don't really care for the "caterwauling" of original instruments.  The fact is that we're spoiled for riches these days and any of the sets you mention pleases me tremendously compared to the stultifyingly grave big band Beethoven of the late-Romantic tradition (typified by Furtwängler) that we grew up with.

premont

Quote from: Que on November 18, 2007, 08:03:44 AM
I agree with Longears on Brüggen's Eroïca - I think it's the best of the bunch, with the 7th & 8th close behind. And in fact I prefer the whole cycle to Gardiner's, haven't heard Hogwood.

Q

And this is why I just ordered the Brüggen set from JPC (along with the Mackerras II on Hyperion).
γνῶθι σεαυτόν

Harry

Well another dissenter then, I think the Bruggen awful, extremely so, never before in my life did a Beethoven set so disgust me, mind it is my opinion, take no heed. ;D
Secondly I resist the notion that Gardiners set is nice, too nice, there is nothing nice about it, there is enough rawness in the process.
Hogwood is a beast, I mean that's really raw flesh, and I like it very much. Norrington throws high eyes, vivid, razorsharp thunderclap performances, get a kick out of them too. Zinman is just fantastic, have no other words, exact, a rich and detailed sound, with very revealing moments, always exhilarating, great fun. Karajan's big band extravaganza is a thrilling must also, but the boring Bruggen puts me to sleep, much overrated junkfood. ;D ;D

Bogey

Quote from: Harry on November 18, 2007, 09:27:28 AM
Well another dissenter then, I think the Bruggen awful, extremely so, never before in my life did a Beethoven set so disgust me, mind it is my opinion, take no heed. ;D
Secondly I resist the notion that Gardiners set is nice, too nice, there is nothing nice about it, there is enough rawness in the process.
Hogwood is a beast, I mean that's really raw flesh, and I like it very much. Norrington throws high eyes, vivid, razorsharp thunderclap performances, get a kick out of them too. Zinman is just fantastic, have no other words, exact, a rich and detailed sound, with very revealing moments, always exhilarating, great fun. Karajan's big band extravaganza is a thrilling must also, but the boring Bruggen puts me to sleep, much overrated junkfood. ;D ;D


I.M. me immediately should it go in your "refusal bin" Harry. ;D

PW: Be glad to offer you a fair price for your 1 and 3 (I love both of these symphonies) should you want to discard it....though you may want to test the open market on Ebay considering what they are fetching.
There will never be another era like the Golden Age of Hollywood.  We didn't know how to blow up buildings then so we had no choice but to tell great stories with great characters.-Ben Mankiewicz

premont

Quote from: Harry on November 18, 2007, 09:27:28 AM
Well another dissenter then, I think the Bruggen awful, extremely so, never before in my life did a Beethoven set so disgust me, mind it is my opinion, take no heed. ;D
Secondly I resist the notion that Gardiners set is nice, too nice, there is nothing nice about it, there is enough rawness in the process.
Hogwood is a beast, I mean that's really raw flesh, and I like it very much. Norrington throws high eyes, vivid, razorsharp thunderclap performances, get a kick out of them too. Zinman is just fantastic, have no other words, exact, a rich and detailed sound, with very revealing moments, always exhilarating, great fun. Karajan's big band extravaganza is a thrilling must also, but the boring Bruggen puts me to sleep, much overrated junkfood. ;D ;D


Karajan is too much big bang for me, so other than Hogwood and Zinman, which I already have - and Norrington, which I once had but only have kept the best of, you would recommend Gardiner?
γνῶθι σεαυτόν

Harry

Quote from: premont on November 18, 2007, 09:40:33 AM
Karajan is too much big bang for me, so other than Hogwood and Zinman, which I already have - and Norrington, which I once had but only have kept the best of, you would recommend Gardiner?

Absolutely, it may be a somewhat more refined sound as Hogwood, or Norrington, but its gorgeous refined....... :)