Beethoven in Period Performances

Started by Que, April 07, 2007, 07:34:50 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Harry

Quote from: Bogey on November 18, 2007, 09:34:41 AM
I.M. me immediately should it go in your "refusal bin" Harry. ;D

PW: Be glad to offer you a fair price for your 1 and 3 (I love both of these symphonies) should you want to discard it....though you may want to test the open market on Ebay considering what they are fetching.

I long time ago, when I bought this, not really knowing what was coming at me, I used them on a tiny Island before the Dutch coast, and threw them as far as I could in the sea.....
A different refusal bin, GMG did not exist, otherwise you could have them, and I pay you even for that! ;D ;D ;D

Bogey

Quote from: Harry on November 18, 2007, 09:45:15 AM
I long time ago, when I bought this, not really knowing what was coming at me, I used them on a tiny Island before the Dutch coast, and threw them as far as I could in the sea.....
A different refusal bin, GMG did not exist, otherwise you could have them, and I pay you even for that! ;D ;D ;D

Thanks harry.  It was the thought that counts....one man's trash,..... ;D
There will never be another era like the Golden Age of Hollywood.  We didn't know how to blow up buildings then so we had no choice but to tell great stories with great characters.-Ben Mankiewicz

premont

Quote from: Harry on November 18, 2007, 09:45:15 AM
I long time ago, when I bought this, not really knowing what was coming at me, I used them on a tiny Island before the Dutch coast, and threw them as far as I could in the sea.....
A different refusal bin, GMG did not exist, otherwise you could have them, and I pay you even for that! ;D ;D ;D

I understand you very well, - I have done similar things (not into the water, but on a waste site) with awful (IMO) recordings, which I thought were too bad to give away.
γνῶθι σεαυτόν

Harry

Quote from: premont on November 18, 2007, 09:59:35 AM
I understand you very well, - I have done similar things (not into the water, but on a waste site) with awful (IMO) recordings, which I thought were too bad to give away.

Yes, that's it......same with me! :)

George

Quote from: Bogey on November 18, 2007, 09:47:15 AM
Thanks harry.  It was the thought that counts....one man's trash,..... ;D

Another fish's trash?  ;D

PerfectWagnerite

Quote from: Bogey on November 18, 2007, 09:34:41 AM
I.M. me immediately should it go in your "refusal bin" Harry. ;D

PW: Be glad to offer you a fair price for your 1 and 3 (I love both of these symphonies) should you want to discard it....though you may want to test the open market on Ebay considering what they are fetching.
I found 1, can't find #3 (probably at my mother's house somewhere). Shoot me a PM with an address and I'll send it to you for free. No strings attached. 1 is coupled with Mozart's K550 which is a better performance but not really a standout.

Bogey

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on November 18, 2007, 11:04:47 AM
I found 1, can't find #3 (probably at my mother's house somewhere). Shoot me a PM with an address and I'll send it to you for free. No strings attached. 1 is coupled with Mozart's K550 which is a better performance but not really a standout.

PM sent and thank you very much.  No. 1 will do very nicely and if you happen upon 3 maybe another GMG'r might want to give that a go and also have the opportunity you afforded me.
There will never be another era like the Golden Age of Hollywood.  We didn't know how to blow up buildings then so we had no choice but to tell great stories with great characters.-Ben Mankiewicz

longears

And I'm not sure whether premont's "big bang" is a typo for "big band" or if he meant "big bang"--which I would take as referring to punched-up and dramaticized, which Gardiner does, rather simply letting the music speak for itself.  But this, like so much else, is a matter of taste.  Maybe that's why someone like "perfectWagnerite" (whose name speaks volumes re. his tastes) thinks Brüggen's a snooze.  (Though how a Wagner fan could find anything soporific puzzles me  ??? ) Or maybe my taste is just execrable.  I prefer Boulez's Mahler, some prefer Bernstein's.  I prefer Vänskä's Sibelius, some prefer Ashkenazy.

premont

Quote from: longears on November 18, 2007, 01:57:19 PM
And I'm not sure whether premont's "big bang" is a typo for "big band" or if he meant "big bang"--which I would take as referring to punched-up and dramaticized, which Gardiner does, rather simply letting the music speak for itself.  But this, like so much else, is a matter of taste.  Maybe that's why someone like "perfectWagnerite" (whose name speaks volumes re. his tastes) thinks Brüggen's a snooze.  (Though how a Wagner fan could find anything soporific puzzles me  ??? ) Or maybe my taste is just execrable.  I prefer Boulez's Mahler, some prefer Bernstein's.  I prefer Vänskä's Sibelius, some prefer Ashkenazy.

No typos from me, when necessary I edit the post.
Now I am indeed very keen on Brüggen, as you may understand.
I know Gardiners 9th, - not to my taste.


γνῶθι σεαυτόν

FideLeo

Quote from: premont on November 18, 2007, 02:24:24 PM

I know Gardiners 9th, - not to my taste.


Bruggen is for you then....his 9th is the stylistic opposite of Gardiner's.  To these ears
it has more gravita (or grandeur for some tastes).
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

premont

γνῶθι σεαυτόν

FideLeo

Quote from: premont on November 18, 2007, 02:41:19 PM
Thanks, this confirms my intuitive feeling.

I actually find Gardiner's approach, which interprets the 9th as belonging squarely in the Sturm
und Drang
tradition, making more sense of the music to me.  But of course there are those
who like their Mozart d minor concerto with no rush and consider Bruckner 9th as proper Sturm
und Drang, and Bruggen doesn't take it TOO slowly either. 
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

premont

Quote from: fl.traverso on November 18, 2007, 02:53:42 PM
I actually find Gardiner's approach, which interprets the 9th as belonging squarely in the Sturm
und Drang
tradition, making more sense of the music to me.  But of course there are those
who like their Mozart d minor concerto with no rush and consider Bruckner 9th as proper Sturm
und Drang, and Bruggen doesn't take it TOO slowly either. 

Funny, I would say that LvBs 9th is written by an old and wise composer, and should be played as such.
This is the reason why I prefer Klemperer for the 9th.
γνῶθι σεαυτόν

Mark

On the subject of the Ninth Symphony, has this been lauded yet in this thread:



If it hasn't, yet me say simply that this is the most engrossing and surprising performance I've so far encountered. What Herreweghe does with the textures and colours of just about every instrument he conducts on this recording can only be likened to the work of a fine art restorer: layers of historical 'abuse' (man, I am so gonna get slapped for saying that! ;D) are stripped away to reveal Ludwig's masterpiece in all its glorious finery. I swear there are sections of this symphony I'd never noticed until hearing Herreweghe's masterly interpretation. I can't yet comment on Gardiner's reading (it's coming this week, however - I just grabbed the whole cycle), but it'll have to work its arse off to beat this. :)

FideLeo

#174
Quote from: premont on November 18, 2007, 03:00:19 PM
Funny, I would say that LvBs 9th is written by an old and wise composer, and should be played as such.
This is the reason why I prefer Klemperer for the 9th.

As music can be (and was) performed by anyone outside of the composer, so maybe
its character should not be so much determined by one particular personality as by the
genre tradition to which the music subscribes...no?  Haydn's contemporaries, for example,
would not have approached his late oratorios the same way that the "old and frail" composer
did.  We know that Brahms conducted his symphonies rather fast (for modern standards) in
his later years so perhaps Beethoven wanted it fierce and fast also?   :D
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

FideLeo

#175
Quote from: Mark on November 18, 2007, 03:03:19 PM
If it hasn't, yet me say simply that this is the most engrossing and surprising performance I've so far encountered. What Herreweghe does with the textures and colours of just about every instrument he conducts on this recording can only be likened to the work of a fine art restorer: layers of historical 'abuse' (man, I am so gonna get slapped for saying that! ;D) are stripped away to reveal Ludwig's masterpiece in all its glorious finery. I swear there are sections of this symphony I'd never noticed until hearing Herreweghe's masterly interpretation. I can't yet comment on Gardiner's reading (it's coming this week, however - I just grabbed the whole cycle), but it'll have to work its arse off to beat this. :)

Yes "sections" from this symphony can be heard much better in this recording, particularly if one listens in
a 3-D (i.e. counterpoint) rather than the old "melody plus harmony" way.   :)  I must repeat that this is the only recording of this piece in which I could hear all the words sung by the choir without having to check the booklet.
Well done sound engineering. (I hastened to buy Herreweghe's Brahms Requiem after this, but no luck alas in
this regard - that was recorded at a totally different location- with a fuzzy sound).
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

premont

Quote from: fl.traverso on November 18, 2007, 03:11:05 PM
As music can be (and was) performed by anyone outside of the composer, so maybe
its character should not be so much determined by one particular personality as by the
genre tradition to which the music subscribes...no?  Haydn's contemporaries, for example,
would not have approached his late oratorios the same way that the "old and frail" composer
did.  We know that Brahms conducted his symphonies rather fast (for modern standards) in
his later years so perhaps Beethoven wanted it fierce and fast also?   :D

You contradict yourself a bit in this post.

On the one hand you say, that the 9th should be played according to the tradition in which it was written and not determined by the composer.
On the other hand you say, that LvB maybe wanted it to be played fast, so we should play it fast. Well, I agree that the third movement almost always is played too slow making the movement long and boring.

But instead of saying that the 9th was written in a well defined tradition, I would rather say that it is without real precedent, and that it started a tradition itself.

Concerning how much we should respect the composers will - or presumed will - opinions are often divided. I think the composer must be the greatest authority as to his own music. But since we know very little about most composers will, we are forced to play according to the little we know about the performing traditions.
γνῶθι σεαυτόν

Gurn Blanston

From "Beethoven: Impressions of his Contemporaries" ed. O.G. Sonneck:

"In his two volume "Beethoven: Reminiscences of Contemporaries" Kerst begins his note on Sir George Smart (1776-1867) with "Sir George visited Beethoven in Vienna in 1825..." Smart was the son of a London music publisher and the principal conductor of the orchestra of the London Philharmonic Society, to which the 9th Symphony was dedicated.... [large snip]...
On Friday, Sept. 16, we came with young Ries by carriage from Mödling to Baden (to visit Beethoven). [Another snip, in which Smart describes the Broadwood fortepiano, and a long extemporization that B played for them on it]. "Beethoven then gave me the timings of the movements of many of his symphonies by playing the subjects on his fortepiano, including the Choral Symphony, which according to his account, took three-quarters of an hour only in performance. The party present, which included Holz, the violinist, and nephew Carl, in addition to young Ries, agreed that the performance in Vienna took only that time...." &c &c &c.

Of course, timepieces being what they were back then... We can argue the 45 minutes until we are all blue in the face, but ultimately, you cannot say that Beethoven expected this piece to be played anything but very briskly, whether it was 45 minutes or the 59 that Zinman clocks in at. I think it's fair to say that 80 or longer is right out. :D

8)


----------------
Now playing:  North German Radio Symphony / Eschenbach  Midori / Eschenbach - K 315f Anh 56 Concerto in D for Violin & Piano 2nd mvmt - Andantino cantabile
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Brian

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 18, 2007, 05:16:53 PM"Beethoven then gave me the timings of the movements of many of his symphonies by playing the subjects on his fortepiano, including the Choral Symphony, which according to his account, took three-quarters of an hour only in performance. The party present, which included Holz, the violinist, and nephew Carl, in addition to young Ries, agreed that the performance in Vienna took only that time...." &c &c &c.

Of course, timepieces being what they were back then... We can argue the 45 minutes until we are all blue in the face, but ultimately, you cannot say that Beethoven expected this piece to be played anything but very briskly, whether it was 45 minutes or the 59 that Zinman clocks in at. I think it's fair to say that 80 or longer is right out. :D
:o  Holy schmidt!!!!
The fastest timings I can imagine are 13/10/12/19, but even that adds up to 54. Tomorrow I shall try to imagine my way through the LvB 9 in my head, taking the music as quickly as possible, and omitting scherzo repeats, and will see how briskly the little radio in my brain can play the piece.

12tone.

New to the thread so haven't read it all:

If a performer were to do a HIP Beethoven PS cycle, shouldn't it be done on a piano-forte?  That's what would Beethoven would have had no?