Beethoven in Period Performances

Started by Que, April 07, 2007, 07:34:50 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Que

Quote from: 12tone. on November 18, 2007, 07:49:33 PM
New to the thread so haven't read it all:

If a performer were to do a HIP Beethoven PS cycle, shouldn't it be done on a piano-forte?  That's what would Beethoven would have had no? 

The teminology isn't quite fixed, but you probably mean what is commonly called fortepiano.
The term pianoforte - or "piano" for short, is mostly used for the modern instrument. :)

Anyway, the answer is: Yes, Beethoven played on this kind of thingie.
Excellent recordings available by Paul Komen (Globe) or Ronald Brautigam (BIS).
To hear what it sounds like, I've uploaded samples in an earlier post HERE. Links should still work!



Q

12tone.

I went to Amazon.com and checked out a cd by Paul Komen.  That was unreal.

Hearing Beethoven on a 'fortepiano' sounds so much better than on pianos we have today! 

FideLeo

#182
Quote from: premont on November 18, 2007, 03:50:32 PM
You contradict yourself a bit in this post.

On the one hand you say, that the 9th should be played according to the tradition in which it was written and not determined by the composer.
On the other hand you say, that LvB maybe wanted it to be played fast, so we should play it fast. Well, I agree that the third movement almost always is played too slow making the movement long and boring.


Er no.  I believe the composer actually deferred to the tradition as he knew it.  So whether the composer had become "old and wise" "old and unwise" "a stalwart" etc. - it actually bears only marginally (when he performed it himself perhaps) on the issue how the music was approached at the time it was written.   There may actually have been more personal differences in phrasing, use of rubato, articulation etc. than in the basic tempo used for each movement - high-blown romanticism it ain't yet at Beethoven's time. 
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

FideLeo

#183
Quote from: 12tone. on November 18, 2007, 08:35:07 PM
I went to Amazon.com and checked out a cd by Paul Komen.  That was unreal.

Hearing Beethoven on a 'fortepiano' sounds so much better than on pianos we have today! 

Try the Naxos 2-in-1 Beethoven Diabelli Variations recordings by Edmund Battersby -
the music is played twice - on fortepiano on disc1 and on modern piano on disc2. 
Most people don't know what to do with the modern instrument disc after comparing
the two, since they don't need that one anymore. :)

Among fortepiano recordings Komen's playing is more interesting than Battersby's to me,
but it is currently not easy (and expensive) to find, unlike the Naxos. 
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: brianrein on November 18, 2007, 07:06:23 PM
  :o  Holy schmidt!!!!
The fastest timings I can imagine are 13/10/12/19, but even that adds up to 54. Tomorrow I shall try to imagine my way through the LvB 9 in my head, taking the music as quickly as possible, and omitting scherzo repeats, and will see how briskly the little radio in my brain can play the piece.

Yeah, that's zipping right along. :o

I have never taken this account to be literal: i.e. - I think B was telling Smart what his ideal was. But 45 mins., well, the clock in your head could scarcely account for it, could it? But he couldn't have been kidding around too much, because he knew exactly who Smart was, and that he was going to be conducting the work in London, so he wouldn't mislead him, even in jest.

Since everyone here seems to have a strong opinion about all this, I am curious that yours has been the only response so far.   :)

8)
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Don

Quote from: fl.traverso on November 18, 2007, 10:22:59 PM
Try the Naxos 2-in-1 Beethoven Diabelli Variations recordings by Edmund Battersby -
the music is played twice - on fortepiano on disc1 and on modern piano on disc2. 
Most people don't know what to do with the modern instrument disc after comparing
the two, since they don't need that one anymore. :)

I don't think I need either of those two discs, because Battersby only does an acceptable job.

Mark

Hmm ... not too impressed with JEG's account of the Fifth Symphony. It was recorded live (so say the liner notes) - it would've benefited from the studio time, IMO. It lacked any real bite, went by far too swiftly, and frankly, by the end I'd all but lost interest in it. Compare this with the superb (studio) Sixth Symphony that followed it on the disc, and my God, what a difference. Vitality, energy and a taut line are apparent from the first notes to the last, the storm sequence is among the best I've yet heard, and the balance of the recording seemed near ideal. Strong enough to shoot into my top five, certainly. And so good, I had to hear it twice: once through speakers, then again through headphones.

Mark

Since posting the above, I've had chance to hear Gardiner's take on the Seventh and Ninth Symphonies. The Seventh is a stunner - definitely among my favourites. The Ninth is detailed (though less revealingly so than in Herreweghe's recording), but somehow never really takes off. Even the superb solo and ensemble singing in the finale failed to hook me. I need to give it a few more listens before writing it off, however ...

Brian

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 19, 2007, 05:54:59 AM
Yeah, that's zipping right along. :o

I have never taken this account to be literal: i.e. - I think B was telling Smart what his ideal was. But 45 mins., well, the clock in your head could scarcely account for it, could it? But he couldn't have been kidding around too much, because he knew exactly who Smart was, and that he was going to be conducting the work in London, so he wouldn't mislead him, even in jest.

Since everyone here seems to have a strong opinion about all this, I am curious that yours has been the only response so far.   :)

8)
Okay, I just sat down and ran the complete LvB9 through in my head (it helps to be a nerd and have the whole thing memorized  ;D ) at as quick a tempo as I could imagine human beings being able to play. The goal was to go as fast as possible without making the piece sound like a joke. The finale was taken at a pretty much constant presto, and throughout the symphony all passages which could be construed as 'repeats' (well...okay...the only three are in the scherzo) were omitted. My slow movement ran to a stunningly snappy 9:30.

And the final product ... 47 minutes! (very roughly 12/9/9:30/16:30). The first movement was actually pretty incredible - it was dramatic and relentless, though the big recap climax lacked its usual punch. The scherzo was catchy, though it gave me a headache. The slow movement came off full of movement, "propelled" along, still beautiful of course but in a very different way. The last minute or so made more sense than usual (the first few minutes made less). The finale was ludicrous, especially during the choral portions, which honestly make a very convincing argument that, whether it was Beethoven's will or not, we really should stop to smell some of the roses.

...and now I'm off to vacationland!  ;D

Shrunk

Not blessed with the musical memory that brianrein seems to possess, I'm not sure if my comment is going to make much sense.  However, WRT to tempo in the slow movment of the 9th, Michael Steinberg makes an interesting observation in his book The Symphony.  There's a point about 2/3 thru the movement where (I believe) the violins are playing a bright, quick melody over what appears to be a simple chordal accompaniment by the low strings.  At least, this is how it sounds at the usual tempo.  However, if the tempo is sped up just a bit, it becomes apparent that the low strings are actually playing the melody of the second subject and the high strings a countrpoint to this.  I had never noticed this, but once my attention was brought to it, it's quite obvious.  This suggests to me that LvB intended a quicker tempo here than is usually employed.

When I get home, I'll check it out so I can give a more specific description of the exact passage I'm describing.

Gurn Blanston

Brian & Shrunk, thank you both for your comments. That must have been quite a ride, Brian! :D

Shrunk, I know I have read comments similar to yours, but can't place them right now. But they are to the effect that at the wrong tempo, the actual theme becomes invisible, and could just as easily be interpreted as something else. I'll research that tonight when I get home for specific references.

Still interested in other comments. Perhaps Beethoven was daft?  ???    :D

8)
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)


Gurn Blanston

Quote from: karlhenning on November 19, 2007, 09:59:08 AM
Ha! I knew it!  ;D

I was only suggesting it as a point of refutation, Karl. However, if you have decided to adopt that POV, I expect at least a 200 word essay to buttress the assertion... ;D

8)
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

karlhenning

Quote from: Shrunk on November 19, 2007, 09:03:35 AM
However, WRT to tempo in the slow movment of the 9th, Michael Steinberg makes an interesting observation in his book The Symphony.  There's a point about 2/3 thru the movement where (I believe) the violins are playing a bright, quick melody over what appears to be a simple chordal accompaniment by the low strings.  At least, this is how it sounds at the usual tempo.  However, if the tempo is sped up just a bit, it becomes apparent that the low strings are actually playing the melody of the second subject and the high strings a countrpoint to this.  I had never noticed this, but once my attention was brought to it, it's quite obvious.  This suggests to me that LvB intended a quicker tempo here than is usually employed.

Oh, I don't know.  I don't think that perceiving the relation between the layers of the string choir there is so crucially dependent on a minor tempo adjustment.  So, I think you need to be cautious about going from "this was my experience" to "I'm sure of what Beethoven intended here."

Mark

Continuing my initial, whistle-stop survey of JEG's symphony cycle, I've just been devoured by his reading of the Third. If you think the recording he made for the BBC film 'Eroica' was a stunning performance, wait till you hear this account. He hammers his way through the first movement, as though underlining in bold that here is the music that changed music forever. Then in the funeral march, he lulls you into a false sense of ... if not security, then surety. You think you know where he's going with this - then BAM! That big, bold middle section smacks you down. I had adrenaline pumping through my body at this point (trust me, headphones help increase the experience here). That sprightly third movement skips along like a flock of April lambs en route to a lush, green pasture, then it's almost straight into the finale ... and by the close, I was pretty exhausted. Whatever my reservations about his Fifth and Ninth, JEG's Third is a powerhouse, and worth the price of the set on its own.

FideLeo

Just to pass on a link to Benjamin Zander's article on tempi in B9:
Beethoven 9/The fundamental reappraisal of a classic.
Enjoy!  :)
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

premont

γνῶθι σεαυτόν

karlhenning


Gurn Blanston

Yes he does. I suspect that a lot of flak that he gets is due to the fact that his message is quite unpopular: i.e. - all those great post-Romantic Beethoven recordings that people love are essentially not Beethoven. I have shared his opinion since long before I ever heard of him. :)

----------------
Now playing: Orch. of the Age of Enlightenment - Telemann Concerto in a for Recorder and VdG 3rd mvmt
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

karlhenning

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 19, 2007, 03:59:52 PM
I have shared his opinion since long before I ever heard of him. :)

Which is to Ben's credit  :)