Beethoven in Period Performances

[Shrunk]

Not blessed with the musical memory that brianrein seems to possess, I'm not sure if my comment is going to make much sense.  However, WRT to tempo in the slow movment of the 9th, Michael Steinberg makes an interesting observation in his book The Symphony.  There's a point about 2/3 thru the movement where (I believe) the violins are playing a bright, quick melody over what appears to be a simple chordal accompaniment by the low strings.  At least, this is how it sounds at the usual tempo.  However, if the tempo is sped up just a bit, it becomes apparent that the low strings are actually playing the melody of the second subject and the high strings a countrpoint to this.  I had never noticed this, but once my attention was brought to it, it's quite obvious.  This suggests to me that LvB intended a quicker tempo here than is usually employed.

When I get home, I'll check it out so I can give a more specific description of the exact passage I'm describing.

OK, I know I shouldn't have relied on my memory:  the "accompaniment" is actually played by the winds, not the strings, and it's the main theme that's played.

[Gurn Blanston]

OK, I know I shouldn't have relied on my memory:  the "accompaniment" is actually played by the winds, not the strings, and it's the main theme that's played.

Shrunk,
If you haven't read the doc that this links, you really should do. It addresses the section you are talking about, and a lot of other related topics as well.

Just to pass on a link to Benjamin Zander's article on tempi in B9:
Beethoven 9/The fundamental reappraisal of a classic.
Enjoy! 

Quite interesting, actually.




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Now playing:  Orchestra of Brittany / Sanderling - Méhul Overture to Melidore et Phrosine

[karlhenning]

Just to pass on a link to Benjamin Zander's article on tempi in B9:
Beethoven 9/The fundamental reappraisal of a classic.
Enjoy!

Quite interesting, actually.

Fiendishly interesting, really.  Don't tell Toscanini; it would kill him! 

[Gurn Blanston]

Quite interesting, actually.




Fiendishly interesting, really.  Don't tell Toscanini; it would kill him! 

Oh, would that it were so...

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Now playing: Orchestra of Brittany / Sanderling - Méhul Overture to La Chasse du Jeune Henri

[FideLeo]

Thanks very much 

You are welcome - I found this through a post by Rod at his own website. 

[Rod Corkin]

You are welcome - I found this through a post by Rod at his own website. 

THE place to go for HIP Beethoven ;-)

[FideLeo]

THE place to go for HIP Beethoven ;-)

Indeed. 

[Bogey]

Just in case it gets buried on the listening thread, here was my initial reaction to:

Beethoven Symphony No. 1
Brüggen/Orchestra of the 18th Century
Philips

I can see why some may not enjoy this Brüggen recording, but I am finding the percussion and strings fascinating.  The percussion actually has some "umph" and is afforded this display of power on the recording thanks to, I am guessing, the folks running the board.  The entire string section seems to be welded together giving the performance a very deep and driven tone without the brass taken up too much of the room.  It definitely is an example that displays that HIP does not always equate to a "lighter" and "airier" account and the 4th movement drives this point home with moments that has you worrying that a baseball bat is being swung close to your head.

I have nothing comparable to it on the shelf and am enjoying it thouroughly, as is my wife.   

Thanks again PerfectWagnerite.  Much appreciated.

[longears]

This HIP Beethoven thread started me doing some comparative listening recently.  Does anyone know a thoroughly satisfying HIP original instrument recording of the 9th?  The real problem for me is in the choral movement.  Brüggen's soloists are great but the chorus drags like a sea anchor on the music's propulsion and sounds as if they're singing though wool scarves.  Gardiner's chorus is terrific but Gilles Cachemaille is just atrocious--so bad it's a wonder he wasn't hanged for murdering Beethoven during the recording session!  Neither soloists nor chorus are anything special with Hogwood, Snorrington's march drags like a death march, and that's where my experience ends. 

Any suggestions?

[Gurn Blanston]

This HIP Beethoven thread started me doing some comparative listening recently.  Does anyone know a thoroughly satisfying HIP original instrument recording of the 9th?  The real problem for me is in the choral movement.  Brüggen's soloists are great but the chorus drags like a sea anchor on the music's propulsion and sounds as if they're singing though wool scarves.  Gardiner's chorus is terrific but Gilles Cachemaille is just atrocious--so bad it's a wonder he wasn't hanged for murdering Beethoven during the recording session!  Neither soloists nor chorus are anything special with Hogwood, Snorrington's march drags like a death march, and that's where my experience ends. 

Any suggestions?

No, Gardiner's is the best of the bunch, but as you say, the one soloist is less than stellar. I expect to receive Herreweghe in tomorrow's post, and should be able to get back to you on it in a few days. I would add that Goodman's choral section, while not bad, is rather undistinguished also, so that runs the gamut for me. Now, if you took the soloists from Karajan '63 and coupled them with the Monteverdi Choir...



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Now playing:  Quattuor Ludwig - Chausson String Quartet in c 2nd mvmt

[Keemun]

This HIP Beethoven thread started me doing some comparative listening recently.  Does anyone know a thoroughly satisfying HIP original instrument recording of the 9th?  The real problem for me is in the choral movement.  Brüggen's soloists are great but the chorus drags like a sea anchor on the music's propulsion and sounds as if they're singing though wool scarves.  Gardiner's chorus is terrific but Gilles Cachemaille is just atrocious--so bad it's a wonder he wasn't hanged for murdering Beethoven during the recording session!  Neither soloists nor chorus are anything special with Hogwood, Snorrington's march drags like a death march, and that's where my experience ends. 

Any suggestions?

The only HIP version of Beethoven's Ninth that I've heard is Herreweghe's, so my experience is limited.  I've listened to it one and a half times so far, and liked it.  I got it based on a review by Mark, so perhaps he can elaborate on the Herreweghe recording.    I just got Norrington's new recording with SWR-Stuttgart, but haven't listened to it yet.  I'll report back after I've heard it. 

[PerfectWagnerite]

Just to pass on a link to Benjamin Zander's article on tempi in B9:
Beethoven 9/The fundamental reappraisal of a classic.
Enjoy! 

Some of what Zander says makes sense but a lot of it is just his opinion based on no scholaship whatsoever. I don't care how many beats to the bar you beat or how many beats you beat per x number of bars, the opening, if taken at quarter note = 88 just sounds too fast.

Regarding the trio section of the 2nd movement Zander somehow makes it sound like HE is one of the few who advocates the tempo where the whole note = 116. Uhhh, hello? My copy of the score is from 1989 and is a reprint of the original Verlag score and guess what ? It already has whole note = 116 for the trio section. So what's the contraversy here? Again it's Ben making something out to be an issue where the issue has clearly been resolved. And he quotes Stravinsky because Stravinsky felt that if the HALF note = 116 is too slow. No scholarship whatsover, just the way Stravinsky feels.

Now we get to the infamous alia marcia section of the final movement where supposedly Beethoven wrote in his notes: "84 6/8" and thus Zander claims that the 84 refers to the whole bar instead of to the dotted quarter. Now I think it works equally well both ways. Personally a march should be more akin to the dotted quarter getting the beat and not the dotted half. Ben makes it out to be "grotesque" if the slower tempo is used.

I don't know, I just think he is blowing hot air.

[FideLeo]

I don't know, I just think he is blowing hot air.

I think he has as much right to blow hot air as you do. 

[Que]

Recommended posts. Q

Beethoven: Piano Concertos #1-5 by Melvyn Tan, Roger Norrington, London Classical Players BOX SET.

What do you think about this set ? I want to buy it, but want to know any opinions...

I find Norrington's Beethoven contributions generally interesting, sometimes quirky and provocative, but usually stimulating, but these performances really aren't that interesting because Mr. Tan simply doesn't live up to the musical challenges of the solo parts. The overall impression is somebody banging around on a wimpy sounding fortepiano for a while. Kind of like the cliché a lot of people have of period performance. Here it is true. I don't even remember any specific musical details from these performances.

On the other hand, while I found Gardiner's readings of the symphonies streamlined and featureless, he has by far the better soloist in his recordings of the concertos in Robert Levin. Levin is a brilliant and stylistically very secure pianist who really understands the classical style.

So, if you want to hear these concertos on period instruments, you should definitely seek his recordings out.

[Que]

More. Q

Revelatory performances of Beethoven's concertos 4 and 5 with Arthur Schoonwoerden and the Cristofori ensemble.


This extraordinary disc has already been much touted in those pages, and thanks to all the hoopla I was moved into buying it.

It pushes the limits of HIP to its inner and outer limits. I've not heard a performance  that so completely espouses the performing conditions Beethoven may have known in his day. The extremely perceptive notes mention that the fourth concerto was premiered in the music room of Prince Lobkowitz' viennese palace. The room measurements are: 16m x 7m with 7.5m high ceilings. 24 musicians could assemble on the platform and there was seating for an audience of 18 . Consequently, given the instrumentation, strings had to number only a handful of players (pianoforte, winds, brass and timpani occupying the rest of the space).

Further to these spatial and instrumental requirements, Schoonderwoerd mentions that such a small enclosure allowed for resonating and brightly lit acoustical conditions, so that a pair of violins or cellos projected and cut through the full texture without any problem. Well, that assumption is magnificently brought out in this recording (although it's not recorded in the Lobkowitz room). Also, manuscripts and early copies of the concertos have a figured bass part, implying that the piano effectively participated in the orchestral commentaries. The sonic fabric is so entirely different as to make any comparison game entirely futile. These are essentially new, totally different works than what one hears in modern performances. The bigger piano and large orchestra were brought by Liszt; his championiong helped ressuscitate Beethoven's concertos, which had disappeared from the concert scene after Beethoven's death.

I have to say that the result convinces more in 4 than in 5. The latter work is on a grander scale, and that is attained through longer musical phrases, more emphatic rythms, and it suggests an altogether bigger soundstage. Performing conditions were still the same when it was composed, so it can be argued that Beethoven was pushing the limits of his time's musical conventions. Whatever the reason, there is less stylistic difference between this authentic performance of the Emperor than the ones that were to come. The more linear musical discourse and bigger paragraphs seem better suited to the modern concert grand and large orchestra than the intimate, harmonically quirky G major work. Indeed, in this work I was often reminded of the kind of unsettled, questing and angst-ridden gestures familiar from C.P.E Bach's own keyboard works.

Schoonderwoerd plays and conducts brilliantly. His viennese 1810 pianoforte has a rather clangorous upper range, so that rapidfire passagework in the treble sometimes sound like a carillon. OTOH it has a big, tight and densely focused bass that revels in Beethoven's powerful left-hand writing. Magnificent!

[Que]

Ooooohhh!   
Could someone pinch me, because I can't believe that my wish for (what will hopefully amount to) a complete cycle of HIP LvB pianotrios finally will come true. 



Stunning! Marvelous! Yes, I like it.
I just discovered that this is no occasional trio, assembled just for this recording, but that Andreas Staier (fp), Daniel Sepec (vln) and Jean-Guihen Queyras (cello) have been performing trios by Haydn, Hummel and LvB together for some years now. And they show for it by being perfectly attuned to each other - chamber music as it should be: an intimate and intense musical conversation between friends.
As for what HIP does to these pieces, I think the biggest change is the role of the (forte)piano in this. Soundwise the softer edged and sonorous "lows" and the bell-like "highs" of Staier's Viennese Graf from 1825 blend in with the sound of the strings in a significantly different way. On top of that he doesn't have to hold back in fear of "drowning" the strings. And Staier indeed doesn't hold back when edge-of-your-seat excitement is called for, which results in natural and invigorating music making that occasionally pushes the boundaries - an important characteristic of LvB's music. Staier's playing is, despite the mentioned strong approach, meticulous and carefully balanced and nuanced. Sepec tone is centered and firm, with expressive playing. Queyras shines in the "Geister" ("Ghost") Trio: warm, subtle and impulsive.
I think that the performance of the op. 1, nr. 3 surpasses as a performance all other performances I know. Musically the "Geister" Trio is that good that it matches the greatness of the Istomin/Fuchs/Casals recording at the '53 Prades Festival (Sony - Casals Edition), but here with the obvious advantage of period instruments.
Oh, yes - I almost forgot: the Hummel is a nice entertaining piece, with a nice appropiate use of the extra "percussive" effects on the Graf by Staier in the final chords.

More please!

Q

[Maciek]

Stunning! Marvelous! Yes, I like it.

Hello!

Just dropped in to say I absolutely share Que's enthusiasm for that disc!

Carry on...

Bye,
Maciek

[Que]

I just got this - the last of Paul Komen's LvB sonatas (on Globe - 5 discs to date) I didn't have yet.
I find it particularly difficult to give usefull comments on the performance of LvB sonatas - something only our Todd manages to do so successfully. Let's just say that these performances deserve to be heard and I find them on par with the best. Paul Komen has an IMO rare combination of a "fresh" spontaneous, seemingly improvisational approach, and judicious sensibility. He is prepared to take risks and at times pushes the capabilities of the instrument (he uses different fortepianos - all Viennese) to the edge - which I find wholly appropriate in LvB. On the other hand he stuns with delightful sensitive phrasing. By the sound of it he has given the character of each sonatas and the relation between the movements much consideration. Each sonata feels as a tightly connected and balanced whole.

I guess you guys should hear some for yourselves. I've uploaded the entire sonata no. 27, op. 90 as a single track. Would be interested in any comments!  UPLOAD HERE (AAC 320 kbps)

BTW Paul Komen's LvB sonatas discs are distributed in the USA and can purchased directly at $15 each from Forte Distribution.

Q

[Rod Corkin]

I bought this CD years ago. There is already a track from this in the fortepiano topic at my site. A mixed bag from Komen, I don't like the Op81a, a bit sloppy. Op79 and 90 could have had a bit more zip too but not bad. Op78 is my favourite performance from this disk, he plays the second movement particularly well.

[Que]

I bought this CD years ago. There is already a track from this in the fortepiano topic at my site. A mixed bag from Komen, I don't like the Op81a, a bit sloppy. Op79 and 90 could have had a bit more zip too but not bad. Op78 is my favourite performance from this disk, he plays the second movement particularly well.

Do you like Brautigam's LvB sonatas better?

Q