Beethoven in Period Performances

Started by Que, April 07, 2007, 07:34:50 AM

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Rod Corkin

Quote from: Que on January 07, 2008, 04:55:07 AM
Do you like Brautigam's LvB sonatas better?
Q

They are a mixed bag too from what I have heard. I've got so many Beethoven fp recordings already I don't really need to buy his latest releases in any case (I've heard most of them).
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/classicalmusicmayhem/

Que

Quote from: Rod Corkin on January 07, 2008, 04:58:18 AM
They are a mixed bag too from what I have heard. I've got so many Beethoven fp recordings already I don't really need to buy his latest releases in any case (I've heard most of them).

I was under the impression there is not that many LvB fortepiano recordings around, besides the ongoing cycles by Brautigam and Komen?

Bear with me: the multi-performer cycle on Claves, a cycle by Badura-Skoda on Astrée (not my taste - I like him better in Schubert, but even there not without reservations), a 5 CD-set by Melvin Tan on Virgin (ditto), and finally some odd recordings here and there, by Immerseel, Demus and Trudelies Leonhardt.

Q

FideLeo

#222
Quote from: Que on January 09, 2008, 11:30:27 PM
I was under the impression there is not that many LvB fortepiano recordings around, besides the ongoing cycles by Brautigam and Komen?

Bear with me: the multi-performer cycle on Claves, a cycle by Badura-Skoda on Astrée (not my taste - I like him better in Schubert, but even there not without reservations), a 5 CD-set by Melvin Tan on Virgin (ditto), and finally some odd recordings here and there, by Immerseel, Demus and Trudelies Leonhardt.

Q

Malcolm Binns (all sonatas, L'Oiseau-Lyre/Decca LP only)

Peter Serkin recorded sonatas no. 29-32 on a "Graf(?)" fortepiano for ProArte (a RCA subsidary)
Only 30-32 made it to CD, the sound is VERY reverberant.  But the performance is outstanding.

There has to be more...
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

premont

The late sonates (28-32) from Malcolm Binns´ recording have been released on CD. I got them some time ago, haven´t managed to listen to them yet.
And I recently ordered a CD with Lambert Orkis playing three different versions of no 23, played on 3 different pianos, one of them a Graf, IIRC.
And the rereleased Concertos with Lubin/Hogwood contains three of the sonatas. 
And a CD with Alexei Lubimov on Erato.
And the "Kurfürsten-sonaten" with Laura Alvini.
γνῶθι σεαυτόν

Gurn Blanston

Well, I bought that Binns late sonatas on Explore this morning, based on this discussion. Hope to have it by mid-week. I had never heard of him, the fact that this disk was only recently migrated from LP is surely why.

There are lots of individual single disks of various sonatas and bagatelles. But as Q & FT have pointed out, cycles are thin on the ground. I would be surprised and disappointed to discover that Badura-Skoda's Beethoven wasn't up to the standard of both his modern piano Beethoven and-or his fortepiano Mozart, both of which are especially fine. :)

8)

----------------
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Dvorak Op 053 - Zehetmair Philharmonia Orch / Eschenbach - Dvorak Concerto in a for Violin Op 53 1st mvmt
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FideLeo

Quote from: premont on January 10, 2008, 01:21:42 PM

And a CD with Alexei Lubimov on Erato.


Lubimov played the name sonatas "Moonlight" "Pathetique" "Waldstein" on a Broadwood, which would not be Beethoven's own choice by the way....the interpretation is unexciting as far as I am concerned.
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

Rod Corkin

Quote from: fl.traverso on January 12, 2008, 01:29:56 PM
Lubimov played the name sonatas "Moonlight" "Pathetique" "Waldstein" on a Broadwood, which would not be Beethoven's own choice by the way....the interpretation is unexciting as far as I am concerned.

Yes i have this recording. I don't even consider CDs using English fortepianos any more. They are less refined than the Viennese, rather clunky and brassy sounding. I have no doubt the Viennese actioned design is the best suited model for Beethoven's music, which is perhaps why most performances use Viennese School models, or copies thereof.
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/classicalmusicmayhem/

PerfectWagnerite

When do we get the "Moonlight" and "Pathetique" on prepared piano?

FideLeo

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on January 13, 2008, 08:42:07 AM
When do we get the "Moonlight" and "Pathetique" on prepared piano?

Prepare your piano and you are ready to go.  ;)
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

FideLeo

Quote from: Que on February 23, 2008, 07:55:28 AM
From the site of Zig Zag Territoires:



BEETHOVEN: The Nine Symphonies;Overtures: The Consecration of the House, Coriolan, The Ruins of Athens, The Creatures of Prometheus - Marcia alla Turca Five CDs and one DVD -Anima Eterna - Jos van Immerseel

Release date: 13 April 2008
Q

To these ears the Allegro con brio from the 3rd sounds a bit relaxed without losing all the dynamic feel. :)
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Que on February 23, 2008, 07:55:28 AM
From the site of Zig Zag Territoires:



BEETHOVEN: The Nine Symphonies;Overtures: The Consecration of the House, Coriolan, The Ruins of Athens, The Creatures of Prometheus - Marcia alla Turca Five CDs and one DVD -Anima Eterna - Jos van Immerseel

Release date: 13 April 2008
Q

Excellent, thanks, Q. Date marked on calendar. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Grieg Violin Sonatas -  - Grieg Sonata in F for Violin & Piano #1 Op 8 1st mvmt
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

FideLeo

#231



Peter Serkin recorded these on a Graf(?) fortepiano really ;) and in VERY resonant acoustic.
But the performances are extremely listenable so I am willing to embrace inexactitude in this case. 

fl
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

PerfectWagnerite

#232
Quote from: fl.traverso on March 06, 2008, 07:02:27 AM
But the performances are extremely listenable so I am willing to embrace inexactitude in this case. 

fl
You better, because there are more wrong notes than you can shake a stick at.
Clearly the MM=138 that begins the Op. 106 severely challenges Serkin but he gives it a go anyway which is admirable I suppose.

FideLeo

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on March 06, 2008, 07:07:39 AM
You better, because there are more wrong notes than you can shake a stick at.

Not to worry, I have heard many of these performances already.  He's often up to (Beethoven's specified) tempi and that's what counts for me.  ;D  Anyways the wrong notes have nothing to do with the use of a fortepiano per se (preparation time?), and not to mention these highly listenable recordings were made twnety some years ago!

fl
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

FideLeo

#234


The biggest bonus for me would be the sound, which is very well done.  Immerseel used
Viennese instruments and the high pitch that was typical of the region at the time (a=440).
So while on the whole the set has a lot of sonorities to offer, there is also plenty of brilliance on
the surface.  I recognise that the engineering was done by the Northwest Classics people, who
always do excellent work as far as I am concerned.

EDIT.  Interpretation?  Immerseel wrote in the booklet essay that such a concept did not
commonly exist before 1850  :D   Audibly different from the other HIP and near HIP sets
I have heard but it's hard to say it is any better or worse.  One never finishes with Beethoven!  :D
(Thanks to Premont for the really useful expression.)
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

Bunny

#235
Quote from: fl.traverso on May 12, 2008, 08:37:07 AM


The biggest bonus for me would be the sound, which is very well done.  Immerseel used
Viennese instruments and the high pitch that was typical of the region at the time (a=440).
So while on the whole the set has a lot of sonorities to offer, there is also plenty of brilliance on
the surface.  I recognise that the engineering was done by the Northwest Classics people, who
always do excellent work as far as I am concerned.

EDIT.  Interpretation?  Immerseel wrote in the booklet essay that such a concept did not
commonly exist before 1850  :D   Audibly different from the other HIP and near HIP sets
I have heard but it's hard to say it is any better or worse.  One never finishes with Beethoven!  :D
(Thanks to Premont for the really useful expression.)

I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who has invested in this set!  So far I have most carefully listened to the 3rd and 6th, which I feel are 2 of the hardest symphonies to master.  For some reason, so many conductors seem to turn the 6th into sludge, sentimental mush, or they just speed through it (like Karajan) hoping that if they play fast enough no one will notice that they just don't care for the symphony.  Surprisingly, the best 6th I've heard recently is the Vänskä which is big band (the complete unscaled down modern orchestra is used) Beethoven.  However, not many here care for his cycle -- although I'll bet than in another 10 years it will be held up as one of the first great cycle in "modern" digital sound.  The only other modern cycle that is as good is the Dausgaard, and I am beginning to wonder if that one will be completed because Dausgaard and the Swedish Chamber Orchestra seemed to have jumped labels (Simax to Bis)...

Has anyone seen any reviews of the set yet?  I'm sure someone must have written something about it. 


FideLeo

#236
Quote from: Bunny on May 13, 2008, 09:25:51 AM


Has anyone seen any reviews of the set yet?  I'm sure someone must have written something about it. 




Hi Bunny!

Do you mean the set by Immerseel?   There is a short review on the Guardian website by Andrew
Clements which gave it a mediocre rating.  However I must say I am not convinced one bit by what
he said, especially when his main reason for a thumb flat ahead is that Immerseel didn't sound 19th
century enough.  Well, what does a 20th century critic know about the sound world at around 1810-
20 Vienna, as it really was I mean?  Talking about arbitrary judgements in historical matters... ::)
Immerseel Review at the Guardian


BTW, I swore off further Dausgaard Beethoven purchases after one experience with his lame 7th
(to my taste).
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

Bunny

Quote from: fl.traverso on May 14, 2008, 12:56:55 AM

Hi Bunny!

Do you mean the set by Immerseel?   There is a short review on the Guardian website by Andrew
Clements which gave it a mediocre rating.  However I must say I am not convinced one bit by what
he said, especially when his main reason for a thumb flat ahead is that Immerseel didn't sound 19th
century enough.  Well, what does a 20th century critic know about the sound world at around 1810-
20 Vienna, as it really was I mean?  Talking about arbitrary judgements in historical matters... ::)
Immerseel Review at the Guardian


BTW, I swore off further Dausgaard Beethoven purchases after one experience with his lame 7th
(to my taste).

Hi Flauto,

I saw the guardian review yesterday, too.  Gramophon has made it a "pick of the month," but imo there are going to be many, many mixed reviews.  So far I've found the set to be heavily in the more "classical" tradition, similar in fact to the Dausgaard in approach, but with period instruments.  However, because Immerseel is not a sentimentalist -- his Beethoven tends to be more "prosaic" than "romantical" (to use the terms of the early 19th century) -- many critics will feel the set doesn't set up the music as sufficiently "revolutionary."   Beethoven is thought of as a tormented genius, always in a struggle to assert the values of Liberté, Egalité, etc. with an aristocratic society and most people want to hear the music that way.  In fact the man was quite a snob, hobnobbing with the aristocracy, and never correcting their misapprehension that the "van" in his name meant that he too was of aristocratic descent.  That misperception allowed him to mingle on an equal footing in circles that never could accept Mozart or Haydn as more than musicians, and also afforded him the freedom to express those politically radical sentiments without fear of reprisal.  Only imagine the results if Mozart or Salieri had ever dared to suggest that all men should be as brothers!  The closest Mozart could come to criticizing the aristocracy was in some of his operas where he poked only gently at the foibles of the aristocracy.

In order to appreciate the more "revolutionary" aspects of Immerseel's Beethoven, it becomes necessary to compare it to something like Harnoncourt's Paris Symphonies.  After you do that, the music stands out with its length, emotionality, and especially its dissonances.  However, comparing Savall's Eroica to Immerseel's, one is immediately struck by Immerseel's tameness.  I think critics are going to be very confused by what Immerseel has done because it does not meet expectations.  That is why I am reserving judgement until I have lived with this set for some time.  I want to compare it with other sets to see how it stands up over time.  The one thing that I can appreciate is the fine sound quality, and the high level of performance of all of the instrumentalists. 

Btw, don't write off the Dausgaard completely because of the 7th.  The 3rd and 6th are probably the best of the series, and the cd of the 8th also contains some of Beethoven's less (rightfully) performed instrumental music.  I wasn't completely bowled over by his 5th either.  However, I am quite addicted to Beethoven, so I believe that one can never have too many Beethoven cycles.

FideLeo

#238
Quote from: Bunny on May 14, 2008, 05:24:30 AM
Hi Flauto,

I saw the guardian review yesterday, too.  Gramophon has made it a "pick of the month," but imo there are going to be many, many mixed reviews.  So far I've found the set to be heavily in the more "classical" tradition, similar in fact to the Dausgaard in approach, but with period instruments.  However, because Immerseel is not a sentimentalist -- his Beethoven tends to be more "prosaic" than "romantical" (to use the terms of the early 19th century) -- many critics will feel the set doesn't set up the music as sufficiently "revolutionary."   Beethoven is thought of as a tormented genius, always in a struggle to assert the values of Liberté, Egalité, etc. with an aristocratic society and most people want to hear the music that way.  In fact the man was quite a snob, hobnobbing with the aristocracy, and never correcting their misapprehension that the "van" in his name meant that he too was of aristocratic descent.  That misperception allowed him to mingle on an equal footing in circles that never could accept Mozart or Haydn as more than musicians, and also afforded him the freedom to express those politically radical sentiments without fear of reprisal.  Only imagine the results if Mozart or Salieri had ever dared to suggest that all men should be as brothers!  The closest Mozart could come to criticizing the aristocracy was in some of his operas where he poked only gently at the foibles of the aristocracy.

In order to appreciate the more "revolutionary" aspects of Immerseel's Beethoven, it becomes necessary to compare it to something like Harnoncourt's Paris Symphonies.  After you do that, the music stands out with its length, emotionality, and especially its dissonances.  However, comparing Savall's Eroica to Immerseel's, one is immediately struck by Immerseel's tameness.  I think critics are going to be very confused by what Immerseel has done because it does not meet expectations.  That is why I am reserving judgement until I have lived with this set for some time.  I want to compare it with other sets to see how it stands up over time.  The one thing that I can appreciate is the fine sound quality, and the high level of performance of all of the instrumentalists. 

Btw, don't write off the Dausgaard completely because of the 7th.  The 3rd and 6th are probably the best of the series, and the cd of the 8th also contains some of Beethoven's less (rightfully) performed instrumental music.  I wasn't completely bowled over by his 5th either.  However, I am quite addicted to Beethoven, so I believe that one can never have too many Beethoven cycles.

An interesting take but I am still of the opinion that what Clement meant by 19th-century is mostly his imagination.
Not everyone in 1830 Vienna was going to perform Beethoven 3rd like Savall and I really think what was typical of the time isn't so much the eccentricity in expression -- or who'd be listening to Hummel, for example?  -- but the general phrasing and sonorities, of which I am sure Immerseel made as a good guess as he could.   I like many balancing decisions made by Immerseel and his engineers -- the inner voices are quite audible and one gets a new picture of Beethoven's orchestration.  Listen, for example, the many tremolos on low strings throughout the 9th other than those surfacing at the beginning of i.  Or to the d minor chord that starts iv.  Never heard it so much like an angry growl and never sensed so much terror in that one sound before.  It's hard to imagine Dausgaard has the same rich palette of colours with his squeaky clean, polite sounding steel strings and modern winds.
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

Rod Corkin

I sampled all of the tracks in the Immerseel set and was dissapointed by his rather generalised approach to tempo in particular. All rather tame really, certainly nothing new if you've got the other sets on authentic instruments. I agree the sound quality is good, as is the price (£24 here in UK). Maybe a good buy for those new to HIP Beethoven, but not so good for old campaigners like me.
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/classicalmusicmayhem/