Beethoven in Period Performances

Started by Que, April 07, 2007, 07:34:50 AM

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FideLeo

#240
Quote from: Rod Corkin on May 15, 2008, 07:15:34 AM
I sampled all of the tracks in the Immerseel set and was dissapointed by his rather generalised approach to tempo in particular. All rather tame really, certainly nothing new if you've got the other sets on authentic instruments. I agree the sound quality is good, as is the price (£24 here in UK). Maybe a good buy for those new to HIP Beethoven, but not so good for old campaigners like me.

I think that is a fair estimate from some who had heard it a lot and only wants something that can replace all others.
Still I must say I have never heard so many details from the symphonies before - that counts as something new to me  :)
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

Que

Saving this post for prosterity. 8)

Quote from: rickardg on May 23, 2008, 06:34:54 AM
Just for fun I bought the Brautigam bundle on eclassical and a Paul Komen disc on iTunes (a grand total of slightly more than 10 euros) for some comparative listening.

Uninterestingly, I have to agree with most earlier posters and online reviewers. I've mainly focused on Sonata No 17 "The Tempest", and if you can call the piece bitter-sweet, then Komen emphasises the sweetness and Brautigam the bitterness. I find Komen more lyrical, his interpretation feels more flexible and cantablile, the phrases are longer while Brautigam is more aggresive and really pounds in the shorter figures.

Which one you prefer would depend on if you prefer your storms to be like a summer thunderstorm or a relentless winter rain storm.

The recordings are both fine to my ears, surprisingly resonant for chamber music (I think I've read somewhere that the Brautigam cycle is recorded in a church), but on the other hand that helps with the fortepianos short sustain.

Ludwig van Beethoven
Piano Sonata No 17 "The Tempest"
Ronald Brautigam, fortepiano
Paul Komen, fortepiano



Quote from: rickardg on May 23, 2008, 12:00:18 PM
i've actually had Brautigam's in my shopping basket, but haven't had the courage money to press click the button, and now I'm beginning to think I prefer Komen after all, I do like music to breathe even when very intense.
Wonderful, wasn't the latest released in 2001?  I was starting to think the project had been abandoned. :o

RE: completion Komen series. I have been considering to write a mail to Globe on that, I think I shall. Will report back!

Q

Bunny

Quote from: rickardg on May 23, 2008, 06:34:54 AM

Which one you prefer would depend on if you prefer your storms to be like a summer thunderstorm or a relentless winter rain storm.

Ludwig van Beethoven
Piano Sonata No 17 "The Tempest"
Ronald Brautigam, fortepiano
Paul Komen, fortepiano




For me that would depend on how I got out of bed in the morning. ;)

I actually love both of the sets and am happy to have many sets that offer different insights.  If all of the cycles offered the same insights, then I wouldn't bother to get more than one.  Actually, no one would need more than one, and the only reason for buying another set would be improved technology. 

Happy listening!

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Que on May 23, 2008, 09:54:57 PM
Saving this post for prosterity. 8)

RE: completion Komen series. I have been considering to write a mail to Globe on that, I think I shall. Will report back!

Q

I am supposing that Brautigam is just to my taste, as I really like his surehanded style and modest aggression. I now have the first 20 sonatas by Brautigam, and look forward to the last 12.

As for Komen, I have Op 31 and the Last 3. Beautifully played, bring out the poetry in these works. I am quite sure that I will eventually end up with both of these cycles complete, if in fact THEY do! :)  There is much to like in both of them, and my comparative listening with them has proved yet again, to my satisfaction, that I needn't choose one of the other, the music is great enough to stand different interpretations with no diminishment in listener enjoyment and satisfaction. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Beethoven - Ronald Brautigam - Op 002 #2 Sonata #02 in A 1st mvmt - Allegro vivace
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Bunny

Now listening to Immerseel's Beethoven 5th symphony, and have to say that this is probably the most dramatic so far.  It's got thunder and lightening, and great leathery timpany.  Those drums may not have the more ominous rumble of the synthetic skins that I've gotten used to in concert performance, but those leathery sounds have great, startling, "pop". :)

Also, have finally had more time for listening to the third symphony, and am finding that the dissonances seem to jump out from the classical framework.  The drama is there, but it had to sneak up on me.  Sometimes the ordinary becomes changed because of things that don't seem so obvious immediately. 

M forever

When will you people start understanding that "HIP" isn't just about hard timpani sticks and little sonic shock effects?

Bunny

Quote from: M forever on May 24, 2008, 10:42:30 AM
When will you people start understanding that "HIP" isn't just about hard timpani sticks and little sonic shock effects?

Of course HIP isn't "just about hard timpani sticks and little sonic shock effects." We all know that.  However, I find great pleasure in the way leather drum skins sound as opposed to synthetic drum "skins."  I also love the particular timbre of gut strings over steel strings.  Imagine if you will how flamenco would sound if played on a steel string guitar instead of gut or even nylon.  To say that HIP has nothing to do with these materials is to only understand a part of the differences.

M forever

Who says that "HIP" has *nothing* to do with that? Still, gut strings and leather heads alone don't make the difference. Gut strings were very widely used well into the first decades of the 20th century, and in some parts of the world (e.g. Germany) orchestras still have pretty much exclusively natural ("leather") timpani heads. What I am concerned about is that everyone who plays any given historical music on gut strings and with hard timpani sticks, and typically at rather fast tempi is seen as "HIP". There is nothing "HIP" in that as such. What that is really about is the exploration of the complex stylistical world and performance practices from which historical music originated, in order to illuminate that music and give us more information and more expressive choices when we play and interprete that music. However, a lot of "HIP" stuff is just content with racing through "classical" music and making it sound more "exciting" because a long time ago, there was some shock effect in that. But we should be way beyond that point by now. That reminds me, I wanted to listen to Immerseel's Ravel album which has been sitting on my desk here for a while, to see how "HIP" that is.

Bunny

Quote from: M forever on May 24, 2008, 12:09:19 PM
Who says that "HIP" has *nothing* to do with that? Still, gut strings and leather heads alone don't make the difference. Gut strings were very widely used well into the first decades of the 20th century, and in some parts of the world (e.g. Germany) orchestras still have pretty much exclusively natural ("leather") timpani heads. What I am concerned about is that everyone who plays any given historical music on gut strings and with hard timpani sticks, and typically at rather fast tempi is seen as "HIP". There is nothing "HIP" in that as such. What that is really about is the exploration of the complex stylistical world and performance practices from which historical music originated, in order to illuminate that music and give us more information and more expressive choices when we play and interprete that music. However, a lot of "HIP" stuff is just content with racing through "classical" music and making it sound more "exciting" because a long time ago, there was some shock effect in that. But we should be way beyond that point by now. That reminds me, I wanted to listen to Immerseel's Ravel album which has been sitting on my desk here for a while, to see how "HIP" that is.

Sadly, here in the US a modern orchestra using gut strings and leather tympani is so rare that I've never heard one.  Scratch that, I've heard the Concertgebouw Orchestra, and I believe their tympany does use leather.  But, gut strings now seem to be used exclusively by HIP ensembles.  It's really too bad because the sound of gut is very unique.  The different sounds of the instruments was one of the reasons I was attracted to period instrument performance, and remains one of my great pleasures. 

Btw, Immerseel's tempos aren't among the fastest, and that's another way the set appeals to me.  Fwiw, I think the set is well worth the asking price (and they had one at Amazon this morning for about $14.00 if anyone is looking for a bargain).

M forever

Actually, I have seen several American orchestras use natural timpani heads. I didn't say any German orchestras or symphony orchestras anywhere in general still use gut strings (you don't see that anywhere as a rule anymore). I like the sound of gut strings, too, although the kind of sound one gets from the instrument is just as much a matter of how it is played as whether it has gut stings or steel strings. There are many factors. But the actual sound of the instruments is just one of many factors which make or don't make a "HIP" performance. What I personally am most interested in is not people playing through the music on somehow historical instruments, but the musicians investigating the *style* of the music based on historical information.

MN Dave

Quote from: M forever on May 24, 2008, 12:50:16 PM
What I personally am most interested in is not people playing through the music on somehow historical instruments, but the musicians investigating the *style* of the music based on historical information.

+1

Bunny

Quote from: M forever on May 24, 2008, 12:50:16 PM
Actually, I have seen several American orchestras use natural timpani heads. I didn't say any German orchestras or symphony orchestras anywhere in general still use gut strings (you don't see that anywhere as a rule anymore). I like the sound of gut strings, too, although the kind of sound one gets from the instrument is just as much a matter of how it is played as whether it has gut stings or steel strings. There are many factors. But the actual sound of the instruments is just one of many factors which make or don't make a "HIP" performance. What I personally am most interested in is not people playing through the music on somehow historical instruments, but the musicians investigating the *style* of the music based on historical information.

I agree that "the musicians investigating the *style* of the music based on historical information" and using that as a basis for interpretation is important.  However, there are so many modern orchestra performances that have been influenced by historic scholarship that merely recognizing the influence of the HIP movement in their performance should not be sufficient to make that performance HIP. 

Zinman, Vänskä, Fey, Dausgaard, Jarvi and many others all use the Barenreiter texts, have been influenced by period practices to a greater or lesser degree in their performances of Beethoven, and use modern instrument ensembles.  In the case of Dausgaard, Jarvi, and Fey, it is a smaller scaled chamber orchestra and in the case of Vänskä and I believe Zinman, it is a full sized modern orchestra.  One has to start differentiating between HIP influenced and actual period instrument performance or HIP just becomes another example of contemporary (late 20th - 21st century) performance practice rather than the (hopefully accurate) recreation of the a late 18th - early 19th century performance. 

FideLeo

HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

FideLeo

Quote from: Bunny on May 24, 2008, 01:53:01 PM
One has to start differentiating between HIP influenced and actual period instrument performance or HIP just becomes another example of contemporary (late 20th - 21st century) performance practice rather than the (hopefully accurate) recreation of the a late 18th - early 19th century performance. 

+1
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

Que

#254
HOT HIP Beethoven news I just received from Gurn! :)

To be released! (1st of July in Europe) (That concerto no. 6 is the piano version of the violin concerto - just listen to the sample).



[mp3=200,20,0,left]http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fugalibera.com%2Fdata%2Fcds%2F305%2Fclip.mp3[/mp3]

Q

Gurn Blanston

Here's the link to jpc. Only available in Europe so far, but if you don't mind paying the freight...

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/4180561

As for me, I am confident it will be released in the States before year's end... I hope  :-\

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Ronald Brautigam - Op 002 #1 Sonata #01 in f 3rd mvmt - Menuetto: Allegretto
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Que

#256
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 31, 2008, 09:50:21 AM
Here's the link to jpc. Only available in Europe so far, but if you don't mind paying the freight...

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/1010560?rk=classic&rsk=hitlist

As for me, I am confident it will be released in the States before year's end... I hope  :-\

It sure sounds like a feast, Gurn. Hope it will wash up on your shores soon! :)

Q

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Que on May 31, 2008, 09:55:48 AM
It sure sounds like a feast, Gurn. Hope it will wash up on your shores soon! :)

Q

Maybe in time for Thanksgiving... :D

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Ronald Brautigam - Op 002 #2 Sonata #02 in A 1st mvmt - Allegro vivace
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Gurn Blanston

Oops, wrong link   :-[

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/SESSIONID/02.../rsk/novelties

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Ronald Brautigam - Op 002 #2 Sonata #02 in A 1st mvmt - Allegro vivace
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Bunny

Quote from: Que on May 31, 2008, 09:38:10 AM
HOT HIP Beethoven news I just received from Gurn! :)

To be released! (1st of July in Europe) (That concerto no. 6 is the piano version of the violin concerto - just listen to the sample).



[mp3=200,20,0,left]http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fugalibera.com%2Fdata%2Fcds%2F305%2Fclip.mp3[/mp3]

Q
You can buy it now for €17,00 not including VAT (goes up after full release) at the Alpha website.  The price is a little more than at JPC, but the shipping is less than half -- €5,40 as opposed to JPC's €13,00.  :)