Beethoven in Period Performances

[Wanderer]

You can't have a recording without a performance.

Irrelevant. Both/either recording (following Chambernut's definition:-) and/or performance can individually be H.I. or not.

[Que]

Question for the HIPpies:

Is it really 'HIP' if it's all recorded on state-of-the-art 21st century technology??  Shouldn't it be recorded the old-fashioned way?

Sorry guys, but we have another thread for this:

What is HIP and why do you like/dislike it?

HIP Poll (Question: What do you think of HIP?)

Pleas take this done-to-death-and-totally-uninteresting-and-off-topic-topic there.

Q

[JoshLilly]

I'm looking for what the title says.  I'm particularly looking to get the Piano Trios, but since I intend to do a "Build Your Own Complete Beethoven Set" thing, I don't suppose any order is required.  I'm pretty far along in having his complete works already, but I want all of it I can get to be period instruments.  I don't know what it is, but each time I hear one of his works on period instruments, it's like it improves tenfold.  I've already got the symphonies, piano concerti, piano sonatas, and string quartets completed on period instruments, but I'm not sure that I did best on the quartets.  That's why I'm hoping to start this up, since dipping in blind doesn't always come up with good results for me.  And also, hoping that this will be of interest to others!

[hornteacher]

Two great CDs of the Archduke and Ghost Trios on Period Instruments:

http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Piano-Trios-Ludwig-van/dp/B00007LI92/ref=sr_1_42?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1213715976&sr=1-42

http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Archduke-Ghost-Ludwig-van/dp/B00004W5A1/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1213716045&sr=1-2

[Gurn Blanston]

For piano trios, best choice (in my book) is the Castle Trio on Virgin. These are excellent performances, and great recordings too. I like L'Archibudelli's "Archduke" and "Ghost", but that's all they've done (or likely will do).

[Rod Corkin]

I'm looking for what the title says.  I'm particularly looking to get the Piano Trios, but since I intend to do a "Build Your Own Complete Beethoven Set" thing, I don't suppose any order is required.  I'm pretty far along in having his complete works already, but I want all of it I can get to be period instruments.  I don't know what it is, but each time I hear one of his works on period instruments, it's like it improves tenfold.  I've already got the symphonies, piano concerti, piano sonatas, and string quartets completed on period instruments, but I'm not sure that I did best on the quartets.  That's why I'm hoping to start this up, since dipping in blind doesn't always come up with good results for me.  And also, hoping that this will be of interest to others!

Check out this, should answer many of your questions regarding chamber music with piano. You may need to sign up to see everything though...
http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org/beethoven-fortepiano-showcase-t48.html

[(poco) Sforzando]

Sorry guys, but we have another thread for this:

What is HIP and why do you like/dislike it?

HIP Poll (Question: What do you think of HIP?)

Pleas take this done-to-death-and-totally-uninteresting-and-off-topic-topic there.

Q

You mean it's off-topic and uninteresting on a thread about HIP to talk about what thinks of HIP?

[Gurn Blanston]

You mean it's off-topic and uninteresting on a thread about HIP to talk about what thinks of HIP?

Yes, actually. This is about HIP Beethoven performances. There are at the least 2 threads already dealing with "What do you think...?" where this would fit in just fine.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Yes, actually. This is about HIP Beethoven performances. There are at the least 2 threads already dealing with "What do you think...?" where this would fit in just fine.

My objection is more to the "done-to-death-and-totally-uninteresting" description. For some of us, the question is neither done to death nor uninteresting.

[Gurn Blanston]

My objection is more to the "done-to-death-and-totally-uninteresting" description. For some of us, the question is neither done to death nor uninteresting.

OK, I agree with that. It becomes interesting again each time someone new comes to it. However, I do agree with Q about time and place. Maybe we need to bump up those other threads.

[Que]

My objection is more to the "done-to-death-and-totally-uninteresting" description. For some of us, the question is neither done to death nor uninteresting.

Obviously I was not clear enough.
I was not referring to discussing the concept of HIP, but to platitudes like "people talked through performances back then, so HIP actually means we should do the same now", "recordings didn't exist back then, so HIP recordings are nonsense", "HIP means that we all should wear wigs when listening to Bach", and very silly remarks alike.

Q

And I notice we're still not talking about HIP Beethoven recordings... (=off topic)

[(poco) Sforzando]

Obviously I was not clear enough.
I was not referring to discussing the concept of HIP, but to platitudes like "people talked through performances back then, so HIP actually means we should do the same now", "recordings didn't exist back then, so HIP recordings are nonsense", "HIP means that we all should wear wigs when listening to Bach", and very silly remarks alike.

Q

And I notice we're still not talking about HIP Beethoven recordings... (=off topic)

Some of these remarks are silly indeed as reductios ad absurdum of certain valid insights. But I think it's legitimate to question how HIP a performance can be unless we approach it to some degree within the context in which the music was originally experienced. (Example: I have heard both Herreweghe and Hogwood do period-instrument performances in Avery Fisher Hall, of the B minor Mass and Handel's Orlando respectively. I'm sure they must have done all kinds of very HIP things regarding phrasing and tempo, but I doubt more than 20% of the audience could have known, as the instruments were barely audible in that large hall unless you were seated fairly closely. On the other hand, a recording of a clavichord closely miked can give a very false impression of that instrument's ability to carry, especially if one cranks up the volume. So are such performances or recordings HIP or not? Mr. Herreweghe is doing a more HIP thing next season when he brings the B minor Mass to the fairly small Alice Tully Hall, but that means the promoters can sell far fewer tickets.)

As for the "off-topic" admonitions, discussions naturally tend to stray from one aspect of a topic to another, and it seems to me hardly irrelevant to discuss larger issues of HIP performance from time to time within the context of a thread on Beethoven HIP performance. In any case, I was under the impression that the role of the moderators here was primarily to keep people from transgressing the guidelines for use of this forum, and there's nothing in the guidelines that prohibits digressions.

[FideLeo]

And I notice we're still not talking about HIP Beethoven recordings... (=off topic)

Well clearly enough has been talked AGAINST HIP Beethoven recordings, so I will
try restarting the thread with the mention a HIP Beethoven recording which I believe
has escaped the attention of many listeners who are sympathetic to the genre even. 

Beethoven: Complete Variations and Sonata Opus 69
Wieland Kuijken, cello
Jan Vermeulen, fortepiano

Vox temporis/ Rene Gailly CD 92 019 (rec. 1994)

Wieland Kuijken has not been particularly noted as a soloist on the cello, and people
would sooner associate him with music by, say, Telemann or Bach than with something
like a Beethoven set of variations or a Beethoven sonata.  This rare recording of a Kuijken
performing Beethoven (maybe less rare now, see below) is however excellent as a manifestation
of the performer's personality, which is somewhat diffident and deliberate when compared to
someone like Anner Bijsma, but still offers plenty of sincerity and inward expression.  To my
mind a more reserved approach to Beethoven like his is hardly too classical at all (as some
may be quick to describe) but effectively captures an image of what early nineteeth-century
sensibilities may mean to modern listeners.  Vermeulen uses an English type instrument (Tomkinson
1816) for op. 69, a decision that still makes sense if we believe Beethoven was performed
not just in German speaking countries but internationally at the time.  The sound is however
delicious and recording has excellent clarity with regards to presenting the instrumental timbres.



I don't have an image for the recording above but have, in the process of searching
online for one, found a new Kuijken recording of Beethoven chamber music.  I wish
they had chosen to record other sq's than Op. 59-3 (done several times on period
instruments already) but this and the quintet (also done before, e.g. by Hausmusik)
performed by five members of the Kuijken family still seem interesting. 

[(poco) Sforzando]

I don't know what it is, but each time I hear one of his works on period instruments, it's like it improves tenfold. 

May I ask what makes you feel this way? (Well, you've already said, "I don't know what it is.") In a sense I can understand your position with regard to the symphonies or concertos, as there may be questions of balance that may be more satisfactorily resolved with a smaller orchestra. (As another parenthesis, however, I cannot abide that Ensemble Cristofori/Schoonderwoerd CD or concertos 4 + % that is so popular among some posters here. I bought it with the expectation that it was the Second Coming, and I found it seriously deficient as a performance.)

With the trios and quartets, however, issues of balance are less likely to arise as there are only limited players, and there have been so many superlative modern-instrument performances of the quartets especially that I don't know why you'd want to restrict yourself to period-instrument groups.

[FideLeo]

On the other hand, a recording of a clavichord closely miked can give a very false impression of that instrument's ability to carry, especially if one cranks up the volume. So are such performances or recordings HIP or not? Mr. Herreweghe is doing a more HIP thing next season when he brings the B minor Mass to the fairly small Alice Tully Hall, but that means the promoters can sell far fewer tickets.)

Note the responsibility of mis-using HIP (recordings included) in the above cases lies not with the performer but with the listener and the promoters respectively.  I would argue that a clavichord miked closely is actually correct as the clavichord is often for the enjoyment of the player's him- or herself only, or perhaps for someone who would sit very close to the instrument.  That still doesn't mean that the volume should be cranked up, however.

[FideLeo]

The use of period instruments provides particular timbres, textures and articulation possibilities that are not usually available with modern instruments.  Sforzandi on a well-restored fortepiano sound nothing like what one hears on a modern concert grand, for example.  It's still up to the performer's insight, though, to use these particularities of period instrument to the full. 

[Gurn Blanston]

With the trios and quartets, however, issues of balance are less likely to arise as there are only limited players, and there have been so many superlative modern-instrument performances of the quartets especially that I don't know why you'd want to restrict yourself to period-instrument groups.

Poco,
Well, to start off with, the only person I know who restricts himself to period instruments is the lovely and talented Mr. Corkin, so you really shouldn't go there. FT, Que and myself all are on record as listening to modern instrument performances too. In fact Que is (for reasons I can't begin to fathom) rather an enthusiast for "historic" recordings. Be that as it may, you may have to settle for the simple and rather obvious answer that we each and all prefer the sound of period instruments. And speaking only for myself, I often (not always) prefer the tempi too. Really, what could be simpler?  As for Cristofori/Schoonderwoerd, you will either like it or you won't. If your expectations are for the sound of Berlin PO and Pollini, for example, then you ain't gonna like this one bit. And that's fine. This is why each rendition is different, to suit the variety of tastes that are out there. I would rather have the latitude to compare BPO/Pollini to Schoonderwoerd than to be stuck trying to compare BPO/Pollini to VPO/Pollini because that's the biggest difference I could find...



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Listening to:
Devienne: Bassoon Quartets - Lussier / Thouin / Plourde / Loiselle - Devienne Excerpts from Les Visitandines for Bassoon & Strings pt 2

[(poco) Sforzando]

Poco,
Well, to start off with, the only person I know who restricts himself to period instruments is the lovely and talented Mr. Corkin, so you really shouldn't go there.

As for why I "went there," I quote the OP: "but I want all of it I can get to be period instruments." So your admonishment is IMHO unjustified.

And my response to Cri/Sch has nothing to do with the BPO/Pollini or some such. I simply think there are shortcomings in that recording that have escaped the response of its devotees, but it would take more time and alertness than I can muster right now to explain why, the recording being such a Sacred Cow. 

[Gurn Blanston]

As for why I "went there," I quote the OP: "but I want all of it I can get to be period instruments." So your admonishment is IMHO unjustified.

And my response to Cri/Sch has nothing to do with the BPO/Pollini or some such. I simply think there are shortcomings in that recording that have escaped the response of its devotees, but it would take more time and alertness than I can muster right now to explain why, the recording being such a Sacred Cow. 

Yes, well some people aspire to fanaticism, others are just born to it.   As it happens, I have the complete works of Beethoven 2 or 3 times over on modern instruments, and perhaps 75% of it on period instruments (with certain works multiples of times and others not at all), and I am happy with both.

Well then, I will be interested to hear your analysis when you feel up to presenting it. And if it is based on musical issues, then I will be glad to learn them. But if it has to do with the fortepiano sounding too tinkly in places, then I don't really care. Knowing you, though, it is more than that, so please share.




----------------
Listening to:
Hummel Fantasias - Madoka Inui - Op 018 Fantasie in Eb pt 3 - Allegro assai

[(poco) Sforzando]

Note the responsibility of mis-using HIP (recordings included) in the above cases lies not with the performer but with the listener and the promoters respectively.  I would argue that a clavichord miked closely is actually correct as the clavichord is often for the enjoyment of the player's him- or herself only, or perhaps for someone who would sit very close to the instrument.  That still doesn't mean that the volume should be cranked up, however.

By that argument the volume should also be always cranked up for Wagner or Strauss at their mightiest. Yet plenty of us listen to modern orchestras softly enough, whether to avoid problems with neighbors or spouses or one's own ears. The problem is that the early instruments are often recorded at unnaturally high volumes; I've experienced several times the startling effect of hearing a orchestral recording over the radio followed by a solo harpsichord, where the harpsichord sounds louder than a band of 70 players. I can't, however, fault a listener for setting his volume controls at a preferred norm and keeping them there. But because early music is very largely dependent on recordings (I think it's fair to say there are still far fewer live performances on early instruments than on modern ones), it is easy enough to get a distorted sense of the timbre and power of these instruments from listening to records.