Beethoven in Period Performances

[(poco) Sforzando]

But if it has to do with the fortepiano sounding too tinkly in places . . .

No.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Yes, well some people aspire to fanaticism, others are just born to it.

Sounds almost Shakespearean: "Be not afraid of fanaticism: some are born fanatical, some achieve fanaticism, and some have fanaticism thrust upon them."

[Gurn Blanston]

No.

I suspected not, just wanted to be sure. I'm sure you've seen that reason given as to why a performance was a complete failure    Frankly, I don't give a rat's heinie about the occasional tinkle. At my age the punning alone would be unbearable...



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Listening to:
Hummel Fantasias - Madoka Inui - Op 124  Fantasina in C on Mozart’s “Non piu andrai”

[Gurn Blanston]

Sounds almost Shakespearean: "Be not afraid of fanaticism: some are born fanatical, some achieve fanaticism, and some have fanaticism thrust upon them."

Have at you! I shall flay you with my fanaticism, knave!   



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Listening to:
Hummel Fantasias - Madoka Inui - Op 124  Fantasina in C on Mozart’s “Non piu andrai”

[Gurn Blanston]

By that argument the volume should also be always cranked up for Wagner or Strauss at their mightiest. Yet plenty of us listen to modern orchestras softly enough, whether to avoid problems with neighbors or spouses or one's own ears. The problem is that the early instruments are often recorded at unnaturally high volumes; I've experienced several times the startling effect of hearing a orchestral recording over the radio followed by a solo harpsichord, where the harpsichord sounds louder than a band of 70 players. I can't, however, fault a listener for setting his volume controls at a preferred norm and keeping them there. But because early music is very largely dependent on recordings (I think it's fair to say there are still far fewer live performances on early instruments than on modern ones), it is easy enough to get a distorted sense of the timbre and power of these instruments from listening to records.

This is true. Many period instrument recordings are very closely mic'ed. While on the one hand (at least in chamber music) this can produce a superb sound that really makes each instrument stand out, OTOH it does give a false sense of the capabilities of the instruments. The fact is, in pre-Beethovenian times chamber music was just that, the famous diary quote about Haydn, Mozart, Ditters and Vanhal playing quartets has them sited in the parlor of someone's apartment with the "audience" sitting on the couch. And Haydn's quartets pre-Op 50 were intended for the Prince's sitting room with just the players, the Prince, and a couple of friends (or not). So the volume of the instruments was not a factor in authentic performance. Modern recreations performed in Avery Fisher Hall for example are simply not going to stand up as authentic, no matter the research into playing practice or instruments used.

So there are 2 or 3 separate issues, venue, recording and music-making. It is unfortunate that they are so inextricably tied together...



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Listening to:
Marcel Reijans Tenor - European Chamber Orchestra/Wilhelm Keitel - K 019c 21 Concert Aria for Tenor & Orchestra - Va, dal furor portata

[FideLeo]

But because early music is very largely dependent on recordings (I think it's fair to say there are still far fewer live performances on early instruments than on modern ones), it is easy enough to get a distorted sense of the timbre and power of these instruments from listening to records.

I think that your observation of distortion applies to ALL instruments used in classical music -- artificial balance appears in all classical recordings of all vintages.  The act of balancing is required in any recording of ensemble music.  On record, harpsichords often get a boost in concertante music where they play solo parts but as a continuo instrument they really don't need much amplifying to be heard; they simply blend in with low strings while creating that fabulous sparkle on top.  Archlutes are less so but still I wouldn't call them quiet when played in a group of 2 or 3.  Related to this balance probelm is the argument that Bach's harpsichord concertos should be performed like our "chamber music" i.e. one player per part.

[Rod Corkin]

Though I have little time to go to concerts these days the last concert I went to was by the Academy of Ancient Music at St John's, Smith Square. Despite the venue's appalling acoustic (the church roof being so high the sound simply goes up over one's head) the orchestra made a hell of a racket. In addition I have read dozens of review of concerts involving period instruments and it is rare indeed that lack of volume is mentioned. This includes fortepiano recitals. No doubt the reviewers had good seats, but at the Barbican Hall for example I know from personal experience no orchestra of any kind no matter how huge sounds remotely loud from the top balcony!

Another factor is that period instrument orchestras these days tend to be a bit on the small size, but this was not always the case in days of old, sometimes the orchestras amassed could be very large when the occasion demanded it.

Everything is relative, but should not allow ourselves to permanently bow to the lowest common denominator in the hope that those in the back row of the Royal Albert Hall will be able to hear something.

[Don]

I can't, however, fault a listener for setting his volume controls at a preferred norm and keeping them there.

No fault or blame, but I do think it rather stupid to keep volume controls at one level.  Recordings are different from one another, so it would seem sensible to adjust volume and other audio controls as each new disc hits the player.

[prémont]

...that period instrument orchestras these days tend to be a bit on the small size....

Everything is relative, but should not allow ourselves to permanently bow to the lowest common denominator in the hope that those in the back row of the Royal Albert Hall will be able to hear something.

The mere thought of a period ensemble of "normal" size, often one player pr. part, playing in the acoustics of RAH makes me laugh.

[Rod Corkin]

The mere thought of a period ensemble of "normal" size, often one player pr. part, playing in the acoustics of RAH makes me laugh.

And yet a friend of mine (yes I have some) went not so long ago the the RAH, to hear some Russian Romantic music I recall. A very large modern orchestra was performing but he complained the concert was a waste of time because he could barely hear anything. Ok I presume he didn't have the best seat in the house, but it proves the issue of size an volume is relevant to all orchestras and instruments, not just the HIP scene. Everything depends on the venue for everybody.

[prémont]

.... the issue of size an volume is relevant to all orchestras and instruments, not just the HIP scene.

Yes of course, but most relevant to the hip scene.

[Rod Corkin]

Yes of course, but most relevant to the hip scene.

I fail to see the logic of this. It should not be relevant to any scene if concerts are organised properly. The venue should be appropriate for whatever forces are scheduled to perform there, and vice versa.

The finest moments at Glyndebourne over the past two decades by popular consensus have concerned Handel performed by the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment, namely Theodora and the more recent Giulio Cesare both conducted by Christie, and Glyndebourne is hardly a place sized for salon music!

[M forever]

Yes of course, but most relevant to the hip scene.

No, it's equally relevant to all forms of music making since it's one of the basic parameters of music. There is no reason to think it might be more "relevant" to "HIP" music making than to any other "scene".

Everything is relative, but should not allow ourselves to permanently bow to the lowest common denominator in the hope that those in the back row of the Royal Albert Hall will be able to hear something.

If someone like Händel would have had the opportunity to perform in a venue the size of RAH, no doubt he would have drummed up at least 150 musicians to put on the stage and make a hell of a lot of noise.

[prémont]

I fail to see the logic of this. It should not be relevant to any scene if concerts are organised properly. The venue should be appropriate for whatever forces are scheduled to perform there, and vice versa.

Maybe I was unclear. What I actually mean is, that the RAH is unsuited to intimate musical events. Maybe you mean - writing about properly organisation - that a more appropiate room should have been found for the event in question. If so we agree.

PS: Edited because of typo

[Rod Corkin]

Maybe I was unclear. What I actually mean is, that the RFH is unsuited to intimate musical events. Maybe you mean - writing about properly organisation - that a more appropiate room should have been found for the event in question. If so we agree.

Yes I was aware that, I was just showing that the opposite situation can still great problems at a venue the size of the RAH.

[Rod Corkin]

Poco,
Well, to start off with, the only person I know who restricts himself to period instruments is the lovely and talented Mr. Corkin, so you really shouldn't go there.

Actually that is not true Gurn, not at all.

[Gurn Blanston]

Actually that is not true Gurn, not at all.

Really? I have heard you say dozens of times that this is all you will listen to. So, what's not true?

[Rod Corkin]

Really? I have heard you say dozens of times that this is all you will listen to. So, what's not true?

For Handel yes, but for Beethoven no, as there is still a great lot of his stuff you can't buy on period instruments. So in the meantime more conventional recordings must suffice. I still promote, or at least mention those non-HIP Beethoven recordings I have at my site. So my stance is a little more pragmatic than you would like to portray I'm afraid. On the other hand if this is the impression I have given in the past then all is now corrected.

[Gurn Blanston]

For Handel yes, but for Beethoven no, as there is still a great lot of his stuff you can't buy on period instruments. So in the meantime more conventional recordings must suffice. I still promote, or at least mention those non-HIP Beethoven recordings I have at my site. So my stance is a little more pragmatic than you would like to portray I'm afraid. On the other hand if this is the impression I have given in the past then all is now corrected.

Well, yes, it certainly IS the impression you have given in the past! Well, good then. Now none of us fall into the "rabid" category, so criticism is entirely unfounded.

[Rod Corkin]

Well, yes, it certainly IS the impression you have given in the past! Well, good then. Now none of us fall into the "rabid" category, so criticism is entirely unfounded.

On the other hand if there WERE good period instrument recordings of ALL of Beethoven's works, then why would I need to concern myself with old Brendel and Karajan re-releases for example?  There is no logical reason at all. Can you give me one??