Beethoven in Period Performances

Started by Que, April 07, 2007, 07:34:50 AM

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Rod Corkin

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 12, 2008, 12:13:21 PM
Rod,
Did you find that they keep much the same tempi as the Mosaiques? Even though the playing is lovely on those quartets, the slow tempi drove me nuts. :-\

8)

Yep that is true. The Castle Trio are really great with Op1 Nr3 though. By coincidence I've been showcasing this music at my place.
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/classicalmusicmayhem/

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Rod Corkin on August 12, 2008, 01:06:07 PM
Yep that is true. The Castle Trio are really great with Op1 Nr3 though. By coincidence I've been showcasing this music at my place.

Oh, I quite agree, I have their recordings and am very fond of them. As far as the Mosaiques go, the tempo issues they have with Beethoven don't carry over into their Mozart at all, and only slightly into their Haydn. I simply can't imagine what causes a group of otherwise excellent players to go down a road less traveled, and less traveled for good reason... :)

8)

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Listening to:
April 2, 1800 - Prague Chamber Orchestra / MacKerras - K 543 Symphony #39 in Eb 1st mvmt - Adagio
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Bunny

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 12, 2008, 03:08:59 PM
Oh, I quite agree, I have their recordings and am very fond of them. As far as the Mosaiques go, the tempo issues they have with Beethoven don't carry over into their Mozart at all, and only slightly into their Haydn. I simply can't imagine what causes a group of otherwise excellent players to go down a road less traveled, and less traveled for good reason... :)

8)

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Listening to:
April 2, 1800 - Prague Chamber Orchestra / MacKerras - K 543 Symphony #39 in Eb 1st mvmt - Adagio

When I first bought the Mosaïques Beethoven quartets, the tempos just were so off-putting.  Then one day it was the only thing I had available to listen to (on the ipod) so reluctantly I plugged into it.  I was so surprised to find that after about 10 minutes I was not only enjoying it, but completely bowled over by it.  It's something that we aren't used to, but it's the most luxurious Beethoven around. You just sink into it like a plush bed or a perfect bath. It inundates the mind and senses.  Please try listening again!

Sorin Eushayson

#423
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 12, 2008, 03:08:59 PM
Oh, I quite agree, I have their recordings and am very fond of them. As far as the Mosaiques go, the tempo issues they have with Beethoven don't carry over into their Mozart at all, and only slightly into their Haydn. I simply can't imagine what causes a group of otherwise excellent players to go down a road less traveled, and less traveled for good reason... :)
I think this hearkens to the larger issue of a lack of Beethoven's chamber music on period instruments, which is a shame because they're excellent works.

Que

#424
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on August 13, 2008, 11:07:26 PM
I think this hearkens to the larger issue of a lack of Beethoven's chamber music on period instruments, which is a shame because they're excellent works.

Indeed. Though the cello sonatas are an exception. And I'm more than satisfied with the rendition by the L'Archibudelli of the string trios. And I'm hopefull that Sepec, Queras and Staier (HM) will give us a first rate piano trios cycle.

Which leaves HIP recordings of the string quartets as the biggest omission... :-\ And perhaps the violin sonatas - though I'm quite happy with my semi-HIP (early piano, not a fortepiano) by Reynolds & Leertouwer (Globe).

Q

Rod Corkin

Quote from: Que on August 18, 2008, 02:21:01 AM
Which leaves HIP recordings of the string quartets as the biggest omission... :-\ And perhaps the violin sonatas - though I'm quite happy with my semi-HIP (early piano, not a fortepiano) by Reynolds & Leertouwer (Globe).

Q

I wouldn't say the violin sonatas are an omission, the Jaap Schroeder/Jos van Immerseel set on DHM is the best recording of this music, if you can still find it anywhere. I've got a few extracts from it at my site.
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/classicalmusicmayhem/

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Rod Corkin on August 20, 2008, 05:40:40 AM
I wouldn't say the violin sonatas are an omission, the Jaap Schroeder/Jos van Immerseel set on DHM is the best recording of this music, if you can still find it anywhere. I've got a few extracts from it at my site.

Although to be fair, their "Kreutzer" is the worst I've ever heard... :P

8)
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 20, 2008, 01:19:16 PM
Although to be fair, their "Kreutzer" is the worst I've ever heard... :P

8)

At least they chose the best of the sonatas to give their worst performance.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Sforzando on August 20, 2008, 03:50:50 PM
At least they chose the best of the sonatas to give their worst performance.

Yes, so sad, really... :'(   :)

8)

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Listening to:
Hanover Band / Roy Goodman - Bia 406 Op 55 Symphony #3 in Eb 2nd mvmt - Marcia funebre: Adagio assai
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Sorin Eushayson

#429
Quote from: Que on August 18, 2008, 02:21:01 AMWhich leaves HIP recordings of the string quartets as the biggest omission... :-\
I find this very surprising, especially considering that the String Quartets are probably Beethoven's most popular chamber works outside of his legendary Piano Sonatas.  I was shocked when I couldn't find the Grosse Fuge on period instruments...  Hopefully in a few years some smart period quartet will release a set of the sixteen (or maybe even the seventeen if you count Hess 34) and all will be made right!  ;D

Rod Corkin

#430
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 20, 2008, 01:19:16 PM
Although to be fair, their "Kreutzer" is the worst I've ever heard... :P

8)

Then I'm afraid you are deaf Gurn, or worse still you have no taste! :P Certainly the first movement is the best I've heard all things considered. Readers can hear it at my site, if you log in that is...
http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org/post940.html#940

Another highlight of this set is the last sonata, which is flawless throughout, and the first movement is also at my site! It doesn't get any better. I'm not saying this set is perfect, but traditional performances are simply so awful for the most part.
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/classicalmusicmayhem/

Don

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on July 18, 2008, 05:41:18 PM
It's a grab bag of ideas and playing techniques, then?

Well, I'd say it's different things to different people.  For me, the most important features are use of period instruments and the degree of vibrato.

Lilas Pastia

The use of period instruments is pretty much a given. But how about vibrato? Is it not impossible to figure out? Short of a time machine, no one cant tell how it was in the previous centuries.

Recently there was an argument over a proposed vibratoless Norrington Pomp and Circumstance March # 1. Well, at the same time I was listening with glee and much surprise to a Biddulph disc that contained the 1925 electrical recordings of Stokowski and the Philadelphia Orchestra. The whole string section played with such heavily accented portamentos that their vibrato was barely noticeable (but it's there all right). Stokowski was a fellow Englishman of Elgar's and he was conducting those pieces a decade before Elgar's death. IMO that made the whole vibratoless Norrington spoof quite laughable. Isn't a 1925 recording more HIP, re: Elgar than anything that could be imagined today?

Right now I'm listening to some Vivaldi concertos by I Musici (mid sixties). The string vibrato annoys me not, but the heavy organ continuo drives me crazy. Personally I think that HIP means transparency of textures, fluidity of pace and lots of expressive freedom. Within that framework, vibrato becomes an expressive device, no more, no less. I recall with much fondness the Beethoven symphonies 3 and 7 recordings of the defunct Collegium Aureum (and a couple of concertos). Transparency, fluidity and a very variable amount of vibrato marked their conception. Tempi were on the stately side, but there was a vibrancy to the string sound that had as much to do with vibrato than to the combination of these other qualities.

M forever

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on August 22, 2008, 08:07:54 PM
Isn't a 1925 recording more HIP, re: Elgar than anything that could be imagined today?

Not if it was conducted by someone as manipulative and idiosyncratic as Stokowski. Then it is proof for nothing more than his personal performance practice preferences at the time, but not necessarily for the prevalent performance practice in England at that time or a few decades earlier.

This may be a little too hard to understand for most people, but with all these performance practice questions it's never a question of right or wrong, like this or like that and no other way. It is a question of what expressive means were more or less common, and of good judgment in applying these.

Norrington may be a little too fixated on complete vibratolessness, but he has a few points and makes some interesting and stimulating contributions. I don't see anything "laughable" in that, maybe a little stubbornness but then I would rather listen to someone who is convinced of what he is doing than yet another genius who has no ideas and convictions of his own and just copycats his "interpretations".

Lilas Pastia

There are many Elgar conducted performances readily available to go to the heart of the matter. I used to have the big 8 lp EMI set and I recall it was not much different from what one hears today. Except much faster most of the time.

Que

Recommended posts! :)

Q

Quote from: SonicMan on September 13, 2008, 04:50:14 PM
Tonight for our dinner music, a new arrival highly recommended in a recent Fanfare review:

Beethoven - Bagatelles (w/ Fur Elise) performed by Linda Nicholson on a fortepiano:

 

Quote from: SonicMan on September 19, 2008, 08:55:55 AM
Quoting myself above, but giving this disc a closer listening - the Fanfare review, which is stupendous, can be read HERE, if interested; the fortepiano is an original by Johann Fritz, circa 1815 (restored by Christopher Clarke).

Rod Corkin

#436
Quote from: Que on September 20, 2008, 01:06:15 AM
Recommended posts! :)

Q

I reviewed Linda Nicholson's CD at my site ages ago. I'll provide GMG with a more concise analysis - it's a pile of crap.
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/classicalmusicmayhem/

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Rod Corkin on September 20, 2008, 02:43:08 PM
I reviewed Linda Nicholson's CD at my site ages ago. I'll provide GMG with a more concise analysis - it's a pile of crap.

And you are a man who knows crap, so I guess I'll have to give it a miss... :D

8)

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Listening to:
Johann Gottfried Eckard: Keyboard Works - Arthur Schoonderwoerd - Op 1 #3 Sonata in f for Fortepiano 1st mvmt - Allegro maestoso e staccato
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Lilas Pastia

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 20, 2008, 04:21:52 PM

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Listening to:
Johann Gottfried Eckard: Keyboard Works - Arthur Schoonderwoerd - Op 1 #3 Sonata in f for Fortepiano 1st mvmt - Allegro maestoso e staccato

Fantastic music!

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on September 20, 2008, 05:03:58 PM
Fantastic music!

Yes, it's really very good. I like the same music performed on clavichord (by Spanyi) but the fortepiano here really is the right instrument, I think. This was actually the first music written specifically FOR the fortepiano, so that Eckard could demonstrate its capabilities in Paris, where he was a fortepiano salesman, and it does take advantage of what the instrument had to offer. I suspect he did well. :)

8)

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Listening to:
ASMitF/ Brown & Consortium Classicum / Klocker - Hoffmeister SC in Bb for Clarinet & Bassoon WoO 1st mvmt - Allegro maestoso
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)