Beethoven in Period Performances

Started by Que, April 07, 2007, 07:34:50 AM

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Gurn Blanston

I completely agree with M vis-a-vis the Hogwood recordings. Although there is a bit of... ruggedness to them, I hardly think it is inappropriate. I have all the period instrument sets (save Brüggen), and this is my favorite. For several years Gardiner was, but in the last year I have come to realize that in terms of being "historical" in any way, they simply aren't. They are rather more like wonderfully well-played modern versions with period instrument tone color. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but Hogwood puts me far more in mind of "being there". Each symphony receives unique treatment which is appropriate to its particular performance needs, there is no doubt that the same forces performing the 1st, for example, are totally not adequate for the 7th, and they don't try to make it so either. If one listens to this set with that in mind, one can hardly be disappointed. :)

8)

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Sorin Eushayson

Ah, well, there's no accounting for personal taste, I suppose.  I really tried to like the Hogwood set but just didn't see in it what you guys did...  :(

Que

#462
Recommended post - thanks for pointing this interesting disc out, Luke! :)
Pity that Schiff did not pursue in HIP any further... ::)

lukeottevanger
Keep listening to this stunner, since attending a concert a couple of weekends ago at the beautiful home of some local music teachers with a spectacular fortepiano/harpsichord collection. Japanese fortepianist Mariko Koide performed on their 1812 Broadwood, an instrument identical to Beethoven's 1817 instrument except for minor cosmetic differences - and the fact that it sounds even better than his. The op 126 Bagatelles never sounded better, IMO, though Schiff runs them close in his reading on this disc (which is all miniatures - the two sets of Bagatelles plus rare late fragmentary pieces):



A cliche, I know, but both Schiff's performance on Beethoven's own piano and Koide's on the identical one I heard live had the effect of stripping away layers of varnish from this music (yes, sorry, I said it was a cliche, but it's the way I heard things!). In particular, I've never been so struck by the physicality of the sound as by Koide's playing, and especially by Beethoven's incessant use of registral interplay - it's obvious, of course, played on any instrument, but it positively shoved itself in my face on the Broadwood, the way his use of very high and very low registers, and the interaction between the two, takes on an almost narrative role. The unity of tone of a modern piano glosses over this somewhat - but the rougher, powerful bottom end of a Broadwood and the ethereal higher end really dramatise things greatly. The most haunting example - she played it as an encore too - is the last of the op 126 Bagatelles, in which a low droning bass becomes an almost rasping barrel-organ like whisper, whilst fragments of lullaby float above it sweetly metallic like a child's music box, delicate and glowing. Unforgetable - and unreproducable on a modern piano.

Koide was a remarakble player, and is a passionate Beethoven scholar. I loved her justification for playing on the Broadwood - most people play Beethoven on Viennese pianos, she said, because that's what he wrote most of his piano music on. But (she continued) last time she performed 'here' (at the venue the concert was at) she had the chance to play both sorts of piano side-by-side (she reproduced the contrast for us, and it was shocking). She realised with astonishment that, whereas to play Beethoven (all Beethoven) on a Viennese piano requires extra input from the pianist in terms of little touches of pedal here and there etc., on a Broadwood one simply has to obey his markings - there's no feeling that more is required. So, whether or not the music was written on or for a Viennese piano or a Broadwood, her gut feeling was that the instrument Beethoven imagined in his head as 'piano', his Platonic piano, if you like, was something like a Broadwood. Emiprically speaking, it certainly sounded both more convincing and more musically effective to me.



I removed the quotes around this post so it could be further quoted... GB  8)

adamdavid80

Thoughts towards Hogwood's Beethoven Piano Concertos?
Hardly any of us expects life to be completely fair; but for Eric, it's personal.

- Karl Henning

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Que on October 24, 2008, 04:08:19 AM
Recommended post - thanks for pointing this interesting disc out, Luke! :)
Pity that Schiff did not pursue in HIP any further... ::)

lukeottevanger
Keep listening to this stunner, since attending a concert a couple of weekends ago at the beautiful home of some local music teachers with a spectacular fortepiano/harpsichord collection. Japanese fortepianist Mariko Koide performed on their 1812 Broadwood, an instrument identical to Beethoven's 1817 instrument except for minor cosmetic differences - and the fact that it sounds even better than his. The op 126 Bagatelles never sounded better, IMO, though Schiff runs them close in his reading on this disc (which is all miniatures - the two sets of Bagatelles plus rare late fragmentary pieces):



A cliche, I know, but both Schiff's performance on Beethoven's own piano and Koide's on the identical one I heard live had the effect of stripping away layers of varnish from this music (yes, sorry, I said it was a cliche, but it's the way I heard things!). In particular, I've never been so struck by the physicality of the sound as by Koide's playing, and especially by Beethoven's incessant use of registral interplay - it's obvious, of course, played on any instrument, but it positively shoved itself in my face on the Broadwood, the way his use of very high and very low registers, and the interaction between the two, takes on an almost narrative role. The unity of tone of a modern piano glosses over this somewhat - but the rougher, powerful bottom end of a Broadwood and the ethereal higher end really dramatise things greatly. The most haunting example - she played it as an encore too - is the last of the op 126 Bagatelles, in which a low droning bass becomes an almost rasping barrel-organ like whisper, whilst fragments of lullaby float above it sweetly metallic like a child's music box, delicate and glowing. Unforgetable - and unreproducable on a modern piano.

Koide was a remarakble player, and is a passionate Beethoven scholar. I loved her justification for playing on the Broadwood - most people play Beethoven on Viennese pianos, she said, because that's what he wrote most of his piano music on. But (she continued) last time she performed 'here' (at the venue the concert was at) she had the chance to play both sorts of piano side-by-side (she reproduced the contrast for us, and it was shocking). She realised with astonishment that, whereas to play Beethoven (all Beethoven) on a Viennese piano requires extra input from the pianist in terms of little touches of pedal here and there etc., on a Broadwood one simply has to obey his markings - there's no feeling that more is required. So, whether or not the music was written on or for a Viennese piano or a Broadwood, her gut feeling was that the instrument Beethoven imagined in his head as 'piano', his Platonic piano, if you like, was something like a Broadwood. Emiprically speaking, it certainly sounded both more convincing and more musically effective to me.



I removed the quotes around this post so it could be further quoted... GB  8)

That is very interesting, Luke. I have this disk, and have done for years. Schiff's rendition of Op 126 is my favorite: free-flowing, utterly natural, Es muß Sein. What intrigues me is the bit at the end by Koide. I wonder if Schiff would agree with her, or if he would prefer a Graf. In any case, this is a commendable disk and I hope this mention will entice some potential buyers. They wouldn't regret it. ;-)

8)


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Listening to:
BWV 1080 Art of Fugue - Fretwork - Bach BWV 1080 pt 17 Contrapunctus 13 rectus
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: adamdavid80 on October 24, 2008, 06:15:10 AM
Thoughts towards Hogwood's Beethoven Piano Concertos?

I would offer some, except I haven't heard them. Bunny and Que have both talked them up elsewhere here. I stick with Gardiner, not least because of the playing by Robert Levin, brilliant both in technique and musicality. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
BWV 1080 Art of Fugue - Fretwork - Bach BWV 1080 pt 18 Contrapunctusinversus - 18
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

lukeottevanger

Quote from: Que on October 24, 2008, 04:08:19 AM
Recommended post - thanks for pointing this interesting disc out, Luke! :)
Pity that Schiff did not pursue in HIP any further... ::)

Ah, I knew there was a better place to post that! Much better here, thanks!

Gurn, re:

Quote from: GurnWhat intrigues me is the bit at the end by Koide. I wonder if Schiff would agree with her, or if he would prefer a Graf.

Yes, that's what interested me most about her performance. The concert was entitled Beethoven: his dream and the Broadwood Piano (she performed the same concert here earlier this summer, it seems, though she says the idea was conceived at and for the venue I attended). I suppose that title in itself is a frank admission that her feelings on the matter can only be speculative and empirical, based as they are on her pianistic experience playing both Broadwoods and Viennese pianos, and on the evidence of her ears. After all, the Broadwood was only Beethoven's no. 1 piano between 1817 and 1824 when he acquired the Graf (having said that, these are fairly important years in his piano output, including opp 106-111!). Koide tried to link Beethoven to English pianos earlier than this, for instance, by describing his meetings with Clementi during the latter's long sojourn in Vienna in 1807 (IIRC), and surmising that Clementi would have brought his London piano[ s] with him for this stay. But this kind of argument was only secondary and supportive for her, I think - the empirical sense that she got as a performer was paramount. And I can only reinforce what I said above - the contrast between Viennese and London piano, side-by-side in the same room, the same short fragment of Bagatelle played by the same pianist, was really shocking.

lukeottevanger

Sorry, that was just waffle. Didn't say much I hadn't said before, apart from the Clementi bit!  :-[

bassio


Gurn Blanston

Quote from: lukeottevanger on October 24, 2008, 08:07:16 AM
Sorry, that was just waffle. Didn't say much I hadn't said before, apart from the Clementi bit!  :-[

Waffle or not, I'll have syrup on it and call it well-fed, thank you. IMO, Clementi doubtless DID travel with his own piano (one couldn't rely on fate to provide, and I know beyond doubt that others, such as Hummel, did so). If her point is that Beethoven must have already been familiar with the English escapement etc., I think there can be little doubt. But the fact that it falls more easily to the fingers on an English rather than a Viennese is what I find interesting, since it would seem to be indicative of his having a greater use of the Broadwood than had been supposed.   :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Spohr Nonet & Octet - The Gaudier Ensemble - Spohr Octet in E for Winds & Strings Op 32 3rd mvmt
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

lukeottevanger

#470
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 24, 2008, 10:12:43 AM
Waffle or not, I'll have syrup on it and call it well-fed, thank you. IMO, Clementi doubtless DID travel with his own piano (one couldn't rely on fate to provide, and I know beyond doubt that others, such as Hummel, did so). If her point is that Beethoven must have already been familiar with the English escapement etc., I think there can be little doubt. But the fact that it falls more easily to the fingers on an English rather than a Viennese is what I find interesting, since it would seem to be indicative of his having a greater use of the Broadwood than had been supposed.   :)


What she particularly mentioned (and demonstrated) was the difference in sustain - simply, how long notes hold on whilst the fingers remain depressed - and therefore how performance on a Viennese piano tends to require extra, unmarked pedalling to assist.

As I said, I came away with the idea in my mind - she didn't put it in these terms - that the Broadwood was at least something like the type of piano Beethoven imagined internally. Perhaps his relative separation from the real acoustic facts - because of deafness, of course - led him to rely on this personal 'archetype-piano' more than would be the case with other composers. I don't think it even necessarily has to follow that Beethoven therefore must have known English pianos before 1814. I think it's probably enough that Beethoven, pushing at the limits and in some ways separated from the boring facts of what-pianos-really-sound-like and encouraged towards a more idealistic stance, wrote music which required more than the Viennese piano could always give, and that, as it happened, the Broadwood could. But it's all conjecture - which is what makes it so fascinating, of course!

adamdavid80

Quote from: bassio on October 24, 2008, 09:28:11 AM
IMO .. definitive.

See?  now that's the kind of recommendation I'm looking for.  Thanks!  Now I can remove the shrinkwrap!
Hardly any of us expects life to be completely fair; but for Eric, it's personal.

- Karl Henning

M forever

You mean you aren't looking for recommendations which actually explain why they recommend a particular recording, compare it to other available recordings and discuss it in context?

"IMO...definitive" says absolutely nothing at all.

adamdavid80

Quote from: M forever on October 25, 2008, 02:11:42 PM
You mean you aren't looking for recommendations which actually explain why they recommend a particular recording, compare it to other available recordings and discuss it in context?

"IMO...definitive" says absolutely nothing at all.

I interpreted it as "nothing more need be said".  However, you know I'm always interested in hearing more, and from your experienced perspective especially...
Hardly any of us expects life to be completely fair; but for Eric, it's personal.

- Karl Henning

M forever

There is no "nothing more need to be said" when absolutely nothing has been said in the first place. "Definitive" says nothing if it is not backed up. Remember what I wrote about the Haydn cello concerts? Since I said these were among the best recordings of anything I have ever heard, I thought it was necessary to explain in detail why.

Obviously, it is up to every individual poster how much he wants to read or write, but it would just be nice if some people at least tried to contribute actual posts, not just interjections, to actual discussions, not just sequences of autistic posts all blablaing about whatever recordings they just happen to have. A little bit more information and discussion would be much more fun, I think.

adamdavid80

Quote from: M forever on October 25, 2008, 02:42:02 PM
There is no "nothing more need to be said" when absolutely nothing has been said in the first place. "Definitive" says nothing if it is not backed up. Remember what I wrote about the Haydn cello concerts? Since I said these were among the best recordings of anything I have ever heard, I thought it was necessary to explain in detail why.

Obviously, it is up to every individual poster how much he wants to read or write, but it would just be nice if some people at least tried to contribute actual posts, not just interjections, to actual discussions, not just sequences of autistic posts all blablaing about whatever recordings they just happen to have. A little bit more information and discussion would be much more fun, I think.

Valid.  So all that being said...do you know anything about the Hogwood piano concertos?

(BTW, part fo the reason "Definitive" was enough to satisfy me, was bc you and others have attested to the qulaity of other Hogwood projects: the LvB symphonies, Haydn cello concertos, etc.  Whereas if it had been a new name being mentioned that I was unfamiliar with (or had some or overwhelming unfavoable experience with), well, a one word review would hardly satisfy...
Hardly any of us expects life to be completely fair; but for Eric, it's personal.

- Karl Henning

Rod Corkin

#476
Quote from: lukeottevanger on October 24, 2008, 11:02:31 AM
As I said, I came away with the idea in my mind - she didn't put it in these terms - that the Broadwood was at least something like the type of piano Beethoven imagined internally. Perhaps his relative separation from the real acoustic facts - because of deafness, of course - led him to rely on this personal 'archetype-piano' more than would be the case with other composers. I don't think it even necessarily has to follow that Beethoven therefore must have known English pianos before 1814. I think it's probably enough that Beethoven, pushing at the limits and in some ways separated from the boring facts of what-pianos-really-sound-like and encouraged towards a more idealistic stance, wrote music which required more than the Viennese piano could always give, and that, as it happened, the Broadwood could. But it's all conjecture - which is what makes it so fascinating, of course!

Forget the Broadwood and Beethoven. Really they are not very good intruments for his music compared to the Viennese models, which is why the vast majority of Beethoven fortepiano recordings use Viennese designs. I should know because I have most of them. The Broadwoods were pretty crude sounding in comparison - dull, clanky machines lacking in clarity. Anyone who has read all about Beethoven and the pianos of his day will realise that the Viennese models came closer to his ideal, certainly closest to the ideal instrument for playing his compositions (which is really the only thing we should consider). There has been so much propaganda written about the Broadwood it's laughable.
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
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Rod Corkin

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 24, 2008, 06:29:03 AM
I would offer some, except I haven't heard them. Bunny and Que have both talked them up elsewhere here. I stick with Gardiner, not least because of the playing by Robert Levin, brilliant both in technique and musicality. :)

8)

I have Hogwood's piano concerto set. I'd say all of these performances have better alternatives from other recordings on period instruments, but I have been rather disappointed with what I've heard of the Gardiner set.
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/classicalmusicmayhem/

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Rod Corkin on October 27, 2008, 04:50:26 AM
I have Hogwood's piano concerto set. I'd say all of these performances have better alternatives from other recordings on period instruments, but I have been rather disappointed with what I've heard of the Gardiner set.

Certainly you can always build a better set of anything than to buy one already made. But overall I am quite satisfied with the Levin/Gardiner. If the pianist on the Hogwood is Lubin (which I think it is), I am rather sure that I would like those, since his playing with the Mozartean Players is first rate. I just haven't had the impetus to go out and find another version of these, since I am looking for "very satisfactory" rather than "the best ever made". :)

8)
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bassio

QuoteI interpreted it as "nothing more need be said"

Perhaps the simplest definition of "IMO definitive" is:
"an individual poster casting his subjective opinion that he likes the aforementioned recording very very much"

QuoteYou mean you aren't looking for recommendations which actually explain why they recommend a particular recording, compare it to other available recordings and discuss it in context?

I have no other HIP recording of these pieces.

Quote from: M forever on October 25, 2008, 02:42:02 PM
Obviously, it is up to every individual poster how much he wants to read or write, but it would just be nice if some people at least tried to contribute actual posts, not just interjections, to actual discussions, not just sequences of autistic posts all blablaing about whatever recordings they just happen to have. A little bit more information and discussion would be much more fun, I think.

Actually I agree with you here .. but casting aside the autistic posts thing (which I hope that you were not pointing at mine) .. and since you are obviously in need of more elaboration .. here is a link to a review I wrote last year here http://www.allaboutclassical.com/review/213
But since I am a total noob .. plus the English suckage .. I doubt it will add more insight to your situation, but you asked for it.

As a summing note, If you are, like me, someone who is used to these pieces on modern instruments and new to HIP versions, I find the Hogwood Lubin set a safe selection; I have no further insight to any comparisons sorry.

In the end, I guess it will be safer for you to go with Rod Corkin's suggestion since he seems to be an expert (at least more than I am).

Regards