Beethoven in Period Performances

Started by Que, April 07, 2007, 07:34:50 AM

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PaulSC

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on September 18, 2011, 08:33:14 AM
Unfortunately our Jens is too "democratic" for these purposes because, after all, he considers all this thing about period instruments v/s modern instruments as a sort of false dichotomy.
Well, that's a sentiment that's evidently shared by Demus and Badura-Skoda, both of whom have shown themselves through performances and recordings to be an order of magnitude more democratic than the most hard-core of GMG's HIPsters
Musik ist ein unerschöpfliches Meer. — Joseph Riepel

Antoine Marchand

Quote from: PaulSC on September 18, 2011, 12:25:22 PM
Well, that's a sentiment that's evidently shared by Demus and Badura-Skoda, both of whom have shown themselves through performances and recordings to be an order of magnitude more democratic than the most hard-core of GMG's HIPsters

That would be true if they thought that the choice of the instruments is irrelevant which is hardly the case. 

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Clever Hans on September 18, 2011, 12:04:19 PM
The downside to that important set is that the historic pianos are in my opinion recorded a little too close and sound worse for wear from all those years. The Arcana Schubert sounds better. He also seems to be struggling sometimes to get a decent sound out of those pianos in comparison with his playing on the Eurodisc late 70s/early 80s Mozart Sonatas on a Bosendorfer/Steinway.
In any case, despite his interpretive insights--which are many--he really lacks the finish of Komen, Lubimov, Staier, Brautigam, Schornsheim and Crawford, among others. We should remember that the first public champion of the thornier Beethoven works was Liszt himself!

So for now on fortepiano I definitely prefer Brautigam, who is particularly strong in the big middle period works, and for whom BIS managed to get a nice sound (his Mozart especially and Haydn series were recorded with too much reverberation).

Komen, Lubimov, and Crawford certainly mix it up in the last three sonatas.

But you left uncredited this part:
Quoteit is far and away my favorite if one could only have a complete cycle and not one put together from parts.

I don't think there is such a thing as a "best cycle", no matter the instruments used. I've never found one on a Steinway, and there are so many more choices!  In any case, if I wanted to put together a cycle, then Skoda, Brautigam, Lubimov and Komen would do admirably for me. I haven't heard any Beethoven by Schornsheim, although I do like her Haydn a lot. I just ordered Crawford a couple of days ago, so we'll see how that goes. :)

8)
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Clever Hans

#583
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 18, 2011, 12:32:32 PM
it is far and away my favorite if one could only have a complete cycle and not one put together from parts.

I don't think there is such a thing as a "best cycle", no matter the instruments used. I've never found one on a Steinway, and there are so many more choices!  In any case, if I wanted to put together a cycle, then Skoda, Brautigam, Lubimov and Komen would do admirably for me. I haven't heard any Beethoven by Schornsheim, although I do like her Haydn a lot. I just ordered Crawford a couple of days ago, so we'll see how that goes. :)

8)

Yeah, I agree that there is no such thing as a "best cycle," but wanted to express that I don't think it's really the case that Badura-Skoda's set is some holy grail of period instrument recordings.

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 18, 2011, 12:32:32 PM
I haven't heard any Beethoven by Schornsheim, although I do like her Haydn a lot.

I just meant among fortepianists in general. Schornsheim's playing for example is more finished, on her Haydn sonatas and Mozart. Because of earlier efforts such as Badura-Skoda's and then Staier's in the 90s, fortepiano has become more popular with listeners, while better-sounding reproductions have been made, and recording methods have improved.
I think Badura-skoda in his cycle doesn't hold it together quite enough, sometimes because of his ability and sometimes because of unreliable instruments. I don't think in Beethoven he pushes the limit with spirited interpretation in dramatic passages to make up for it always, as the imperfect Schnabel and Edwin Fischer often do (who are perhaps more "finished" anyway, for a number of artistic reasons, in my opinion).

Badura-Skoda has long been known as a cultivated, delicate and sensitive Viennese player with varied articulation, but not really a dramatic virtuoso. While I greatly admire his Mozart, I think much of Beethoven calls for more assured and unconstrained playing (as historically Liszt provided) to meet the very great demands, and more reliable instruments.





Leon

#584
I have several complete sets of the Beethoven SQ, Takacs, Vegh (both), Italiano, A. Berg and Emerson - but none are PI recordings.

Is there a PI Beethoven complete set out there that I have missed?

:)

EDIT: After Googling the words "period instruments Beethoven quartets" I did find the Op. 18 quartets by the Quatuor Mosaiques - which hopefully will develop into a complete set.

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Arnold on October 17, 2011, 06:32:22 PM
I have several complete sets of the Beethoven SQ, Takacs, Vegh (both), Italiano, A. Berg and Emerson - but none are PI recordings.

Is there a PI Beethoven complete set out there that I have missed?

:)

EDIT: After Googling the words "period instruments Beethoven quartets" I did find the Op. 18 quartets by the Quatuor Mosaiques - which hopefully will develop into a complete set.

In short, that's a resounding 'no'! >:(  For OP 18, in addition to the QM that you found, there is a nice version by the Smithson Quartet on DHM. I prefer it to the QM, who tend to be too deliberate for my taste in this repertoire.

In Op 59, I have 2 quartets by the Turner's (excellent) and one of them repeated by the Schuppanzigh 4tet (I'm not home so I can't enumerate them).

I have at least an Op 74, 95 & 135 by the Eroica Quartet, and at least one of those is also on that Schuppanzigh disk.

And that, I am sad to say, is about it. There is, not only no complete cycle, but you can't even make  a cycle out of parts. AFAIK (and I have seriously looked into it) there is no PI recording of any of the late works except 135. :'(

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Leon

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 18, 2011, 04:24:46 AM
In short, that's a resounding 'no'! >:(  For OP 18, in addition to the QM that you found, there is a nice version by the Smithson Quartet on DHM. I prefer it to the QM, who tend to be too deliberate for my taste in this repertoire.

In Op 59, I have 2 quartets by the Turner's (excellent) and one of them repeated by the Schuppanzigh 4tet (I'm not home so I can't enumerate them).

I have at least an Op 74, 95 & 135 by the Eroica Quartet, and at least one of those is also on that Schuppanzigh disk.

And that, I am sad to say, is about it. There is, not only no complete cycle, but you can't even make  a cycle out of parts. AFAIK (and I have seriously looked into it) there is no PI recording of any of the late works except 135. :'(

8)

Thanks, Gurn, for that information.  Odd how the PI camp has not devoted as much attention to Beethoven as they have to Haydn and Mozart.  Besides the SQ the piano trios are also under served.

However, I will hunt down those discs you reference, since this repertory is so important it is a no-brainer to find it in PI performance if possible.  Also, thanks for the heads-up re: Mosaiques - but our tastes may differ somewhat about their playing since I like their Haydn and you seem rather cool towards them other than Mozart.  At least, that is my impression, but correct me if I am off base with that idea.

:)

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Arnold on October 18, 2011, 06:26:10 AM
Thanks, Gurn, for that information.  Odd how the PI camp has not devoted as much attention to Beethoven as they have to Haydn and Mozart.  Besides the SQ the piano trios are also under served.

However, I will hunt down those discs you reference, since this repertory is so important it is a no-brainer to find it in PI performance if possible.  Also, thanks for the heads-up re: Mosaiques - but our tastes may differ somewhat about their playing since I like their Haydn and you seem rather cool towards them other than Mozart.  At least, that is my impression, but correct me if I am off base with that idea.

:)

Arnold,
Yes, the trios are also vastly underserved. Again, you can't make a complete set out of any number of parts. Of course, if you want Der Geister  ::)

No, you are totally right vis-a-vis the Gurnatron vs. the QM. Love their Mozart (and Schubert too), the rest, not so much. But hey, that's just me, I don't want to affect any else's choices. It isn't like they aren't... perfect!  :o    :D

8)

PS - Strongly recommend the Castle Trio on Virgin for at least Op 1. Can't find their other disk. :-\
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Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Opus106

Coming to a store near you...



Op. 77, K. 464 and 465, Op. 18/1 and 4, D. 879 and 804, and Opp. 12 and 13.

Regards,
Navneeth

Opus106

#589
Also spotted this at Amazon UK...



[Click on image for GMG Amazon link]

Currently on pre-order for 5.99 Pounds.
Regards,
Navneeth

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Opus106 on October 18, 2011, 07:57:53 AM
Also spotted this at Amazon UK...



[Click on image for GMG Amazon link]

Currently on pre-order for 5.99 Pounds.

Wow, gotta have that! ope it appears in the USA also. Although I buy from England carefree these days. Thanks for the tip.   :)

8)
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kishnevi

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 18, 2011, 04:24:46 AM


In Op 59, I have 2 quartets by the Turner's (excellent) and one of them repeated by the Schuppanzigh 4tet (I'm not home so I can't enumerate them).



Are you thinking of this CD?
http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=39542&template=ware_detail_shop_en&_mid=39158&skip=0

Which has 18/4 and 59/3 but nothing else.

My own feeling is that in regard to string ensembles, PI for Beethoven's period is not as important as it is for other types of instruments and/or earlier periods.  This after listening to the Festetics and the Smithson quartets in Mozart and Haydn--I couldn't really find anything I didn't get with modern instruments.  Part of it may be due to the fact that often enough "modern instruments" in many recordings are 18th century string instruments with modern strings and bow, which would automatically bring them closer to the original period--in contrast with, for instance a modern clarinet vs. a period clarinet.

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 18, 2011, 12:51:42 PM
Are you thinking of this CD?
http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=39542&template=ware_detail_shop_en&_mid=39158&skip=0

Which has 18/4 and 59/3 but nothing else.

My own feeling is that in regard to string ensembles, PI for Beethoven's period is not as important as it is for other types of instruments and/or earlier periods.  This after listening to the Festetics and the Smithson quartets in Mozart and Haydn--I couldn't really find anything I didn't get with modern instruments.  Part of it may be due to the fact that often enough "modern instruments" in many recordings are 18th century string instruments with modern strings and bow, which would automatically bring them closer to the original period--in contrast with, for instance a modern clarinet vs. a period clarinet.

Unfortunately yes. My memory played Hob with me again. In combination with the Schuppanzigh disk, I think I have Op 59 #1 & 3. My favorite opus is drastically underserved. :-\

It's true that Beethoven's music is not enhanced as much by PI, that is, some of it isn't, when there is no wind or keyboard for example. Although another facet of period performance is that nearly always, all repeats are observed. This is frequently not the case in modern instrument performances. I personally like repeats, I like the structural balance of them. Just a thought, not a debating point. :)

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Opus106

Regards,
Navneeth

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Opus106 on October 18, 2011, 08:43:37 PM
That doesn't surprise me!  :D

:D  I thought that was a conveniently interesting turn of phrase... I knew you would notice it, mi amigo. :)

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Brian

Quote from: SonicMan46 on September 02, 2011, 09:16:09 AM
Don - just put the disc below (on fortepiano though) on my 'wish list' - superlative reviews in both the Sept/Oct issues of Fanfare & American Record Guide (OMG - agreement!) - Penelope Crawford plays a genuine historical fortepiano, built by Conrad Graf of Vienna in 1835; well, Ludwig had been gone nearly a decade but close enough.   I've been purchasing many of her recent recordings on Watchorn's label and all have been excellent.  Looking forward to the comments on this new release.  Dave :)



Listening to this one more time before submitting my MusicWeb review. This is almost certain to end up on my Recording of the Year list: really marvelous playing from Crawford coupled to a gorgeous instrument (mjwal is right about the ghostly passages in Op 111, and also a couple moments in 109).

My personal (idiosyncratic?) order of preference for HIP Beethoven Opp. 109-111 is now:
1. Penelope Crawford [Conrad Graf 1835]
2. Paul Komen [Conrad Graf 1830]
3. Ronald Brautigam [?]
4. Alexei Lubimov [Aloiss Graf 1828]

I very much like all four; Crawford and Komen have a similar lyrical streak, PC blessed with slightly better sound, while Brautigam is for the classical purist and Lubimov is slightly eccentric at times but intriguing.

Mandryka

I must say it's nice to see such an interest in Paul Komen's Beethoven. Time and time again I find his interpretations stunningly good: somehow he manages to be both exciting and contemplative at the same time. And the instruments really do seem to add something special -- I don't think it's just novelty.

In so many big name sonata his interpretations go to the top of the pile for me. In the Pathetique, for example, only Arrau and Grinberg come close in the first movement,  for finding an emotional plan which goes beyond thrill and speed. And surely no one could resist the percussive timbre of his piano in the first movement of the Waldstien. Or the perfect combination of drive and elegance I hear in the Appassionata.

I see him and maybe Andrea Lucchesini as the most interesting youngish Beethoven players around at the moment. At least from those I've heard .
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Opus106

Is there not a single recording of the Triple Concerto in period instruments apart from this lonely, long-OOP DHM disc? :o
Regards,
Navneeth

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Opus106 on November 25, 2011, 07:11:19 AM
Is there not a single recording of the Triple Concerto in period instruments apart from this lonely, long-OOP DHM disc? :o

That's the only one I have, Navneeth, or have ever seen either. Un-freakin'-believable!  :-\

8)
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Leon

Not the Triple Concerto, but I like this series a lot.  It does contain PC "#6"

Arthur Schoonderwoerd / Ensemble Cristofori

[asin]B0031Q8VLU[/asin]
[asin]B0009WFR5W[/asin]
[asin]B001716JLK[/asin]

:)