Beethoven in Period Performances

Started by Que, April 07, 2007, 07:34:50 AM

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Que

Quote from: Geo Dude on December 21, 2011, 02:23:42 PM


I have somewhat mixed feelings on this recording:  On the one hand, the playing and instrument are both amazing.  The interpretations are great and it makes a wonderful case for a fortepiano's heterogeneous sound.  For that matter, the second movement of the the 32nd sonata is one of the most profound things I've ever heard.  On the other hand, the sound is muddied by ridiculous amounts of reverb; I'm sure that in time I'll be able to get past the reverb to completely enjoy the recording, but it frustrates me that proper care wasn't taken to get a clean sound out of the room (or select a better room for recording).

If you'd like another take - I can strongly recommend amazing this recording by Paul Komen: arguably the best of his Beethoven discs. If Crawford equals or tops that, it must be very good indeed. And no reverb on the recording by Globe. :) Instrument: Conrad Graf ca. 1830.

[asin]B000026ENJ[/asin]

Q

Leo K.

Quote from: Elgarian on December 19, 2011, 12:54:36 PM
Grinning is also an approved response in my book.

I love surprises though, and I'm still chuckling and punching (and indeed lunching) my way through Haitink's decidedly non-PI box of Beethoven with the LSO. Now there's a turn-up for the books. Nothing tame about those.

I am glad to hear that the Haitink LSO cycle is so successful. He is one of my favorite artists, largely because of his Mahler  ;D I will have to try his Beethoven LSO cycle!

8)

Leo K.

Quote from: mszczuj on December 19, 2011, 12:40:52 AM
I was planning to make some comparison before answering but there was not time for it.

So:

The Hanover Band symphonies are definitely my first choice. They are very close to my opinion about Beethoven symphonies as treatises concerning mind, God, universe, mankind etc. in form of concerto for orchestra. (Treatises using points of view, categories and notions appropriate for the contemporary of Hegel - that's important!)

Anima Eterna is probably my second choice. They sound much better and I really like them but while I'm listening to them - especially to fast movements - I repeat "No! No! No!" all the time. For me they are too abstract, too polite chamber music. I would say that they are just the music and not the thought while Beethoven symphonies should be the thought (as they could be the thought) - but this is the false contradiction as the music is the thought. Of course playing Beethoven music as chamber music is infinitely better than common playing it as postbrahmsian glue - but it lacks some possibilities of three section real Beethoven orchestra.

As further referention to my taste I would say:

My third choice is probably Bruggen. Then Hogwood. I was fond of Norrington 6th last movement. Found nothing interesting in Gardiner so far.

From not PI interpretations my favourites are Mackerras, Kletzki, Haitink and probably Blomsted (I have only some LP).

What I really hate is Toscanini and above all Furtwangler.

Thank you for your thoughts and comparision! Very interesting indeed! I have to listen to the Hanover Band now!


Elgarian

Quote from: Leo K on December 22, 2011, 08:01:49 AM
I am glad to hear that the Haitink LSO cycle is so successful. He is one of my favorite artists, largely because of his Mahler  ;D I will have to try his Beethoven LSO cycle!

I'm not essentially a Haitink fan (I hated what he did to the Vaughan Williams symphonies), so I was initially resistant to the idea of buying his Beethoven box. So he had a bit of prejudice to overcome, and he overcame it wonderfully well. The weird thing is that having listened with great pleasure to 1, 3, 6, and 8, I found 5 somewhat lacklustre - a bit tame really - and halfway through I was longing for the energy and brilliance of Immerseel. Now heck, maybe I was having a bad day (I've had a few recently), but all I can report is that of air-punching, strutting, and rocking the world, there was none.

(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 25, 2011, 11:07:36 AM
Yup, nice series IMO also. It rankles some because it is clearly chamber size. And Schoonderwoerd tends to go off script sometimes, but I feel strongly that if we had heard it back then, going off script, even by Beethoven let alone everyone else who played it, was a routine sort of thing. It wasn't until they were 'canonized' that the manuscript paper suddenly turned to stone. :)

8)


I have not commented on this forum for a long time, but as one of several people who strongly objected to these recordings, I think it only fair for the complainant to have represented my position accurately. (For the record, I've only studied the IV-V pairing closely.) Anyone who wishes to do so can look up my posts on the matter, but neither M Forever, who claims he has directed performances with a cohort of 4-4-3-3-2 strings, nor I was in any way "rankled because it is clearly chamber size." My objection was that the performances were badly balanced, using a string ensemble of 1-1-2-2-1, which makes absolutely no sense as the violins are badly outmatched in the loudest tuttis. The problem is similar at times in Immerseel's often good performances of the symphonies, for example in the finale of VII when unimportant repeated notes for the horns completely drown out the main melodic line in the woodwinds.

As for the text, there is little doubt that Beethoven might not have followed his published score exactly at all times. There is in fact a set of variant passages from the fourth concerto that may have been his own improvisations. But "back then" the performer of a work was often its composer, and if performers embellished a score, they would have had significant training in composition. One of my main objections to Schoonderwoerd's IVth is that he inserts little noodling exercises of his own as cadenzas when Beethoven has left numerous powerful examples as models of what he thought a cadenza should be. I would have had no problem if Sch. had written such a cadenza. Joshua Bell in his Brahms concerto recording uses a cadenza of his own rather than the familiar Joachim, but it's clear from his example that Josh thoroughly understands the function of a cadenza in a classical concerto. Another of my main objections to Sch is that he simply fakes a lot of the more difficult passages. Well yes, we know the cellos and basses in Beethoven's time did the same in the C major trio in the Fifth Symphony, but that doesn't make the practice a model for 20th century performance. In short, if you don't have the compositional skills to improve on Beethoven, and 99.99% of the time you don't, then don't try.

I have sometimes been accused of having a prejudice towards "HIP." Not at all. Quite the contrary in fact. What I object to is what I would call "half-assed HIP." Let me give you a non-musical analogy, to some performances of Shakespeare. We know perfectly well that all female roles in Shakespeare were played by pre-pubescent boys. We know too from "Hamlet" and other sources that there were some extremely popular all-boy troupes; I imagine them to have been the Justin Biebers and Nick Jonasses of their age. Shakespeare himself must have had some very young apprentices for brief roles like Mamilius and young Martius, some older boys for romantic leads like Rosalind and Viola, and some very talented adolescents who could handle the difficult challenges of Lady Macbeth, Goneril, Cleopatra, and Volumnia. Occasionally we see the "HIP" practice of having Shakespeare performed by all-male casts. But many of these productions use mature adults for the female roles, when to be authentically Shakespearean you would not have a boy actor older than 15! Personally I think it would be fascinating to see Beatrice or Portia portrayed by a young adolescent male. But what on earth is the point of an all-male cast where the female lead is an adult male of 25? Half-assed HIP, in my opinion.

That's all. I don't intend to reply to any rejoinders, so sharpen your knives as ye may.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

The new erato

Quote from: SonicMan46 on December 21, 2011, 03:58:25 PM
Both 'used' discs have arrived in great shape - played w/o a problem; liner notes look new, and no cracks in the jewel boxes - well pleased w/ these purchases and w/ the recordings - have always loved this group and they don't disappoint in these works! :)

 
There's a set of L'Archibudelli's Beethoven soon to be released.


• Beethoven : Trios, Quatuors avec piano, Quintette, Sextuor, Octuor (L'Archibudelli / Mozzafiato & Charles Neidich) 5 CD

I have the op 9 disc and it is tremendous, but will buy the whole shebang as soon as it is available.

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: The new erato on December 24, 2011, 01:50:11 AM
There's a set of L'Archibudelli's Beethoven soon to be released.


• Beethoven : Trios, Quatuors avec piano, Quintette, Sextuor, Octuor (L'Archibudelli / Mozzafiato & Charles Neidich) 5 CD

I have the op 9 disc and it is tremendous, but will buy the whole shebang as soon as it is available.

Erato,
I have all of those disks and I can tell you that you will be pleased with them as you are with the Op 9. Mozzafiato is not frequently mentioned as a performance group, but IMO that is because they are winds specialists and not so many wind fans out there. But I have probably all of their disks and enjoy them greatly too. Their joint efforts with L'Archibudelli have been wonderful! If you see their Schubert Octet, treat yourself and snap it up too!  :)

8)
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

milk


Oldnslow

The Staier Diabellis are, to say the least, controversial (would you expect anything less from him?). I hate to spoil it for folks who haven't heard this recording, but I will say it is pretty hilarious in spots......anyone who can get a snare drum sound out of a Graf fortepiano is pretty unique!

milk

Quote from: Oldnslow on May 17, 2012, 07:01:56 PM
The Staier Diabellis are, to say the least, controversial (would you expect anything less from him?). I hate to spoil it for folks who haven't heard this recording, but I will say it is pretty hilarious in spots......anyone who can get a snare drum sound out of a Graf fortepiano is pretty unique!
This is kind of tough music for me, in a way. I feel like I have to be in just the right mood to delve into it. I have the Cooper recording also and I'd like to compare the two. Have you heard Cooper? I wonder how you feel they compare. So far I do feel at times that Staier expresses more irony. And he's certainly not subtle about it!

milk

#650
Quote from: milk on May 18, 2012, 03:40:44 AM
This is kind of tough music for me, in a way. I feel like I have to be in just the right mood to delve into it. I have the Cooper recording also and I'd like to compare the two. Have you heard Cooper? I wonder how you feel they compare. So far I do feel at times that Staier expresses more irony. And he's certainly not subtle about it!
It's hard for me to do this with my lack of experience in music and in comparing things. It seems like Cooper takes things more slowly and displays clarity. However, Staier is very funny and brash. In the end, I enjoy the sensitivity of Cooper in this case. I'm a fan of Staier and I have many of his recordings but sometimes I feel like he's a quirky performer.

Opus106

Whether you like it or not, the opening chord of Var. 23 is definitely something to be heard in Staier's Op. 120!

Vars. 20 - 23, inclusive are available at Alex Ross' blog.

Oh, and I think he uses the instrument to wonderful comic effect in No. 22. Brings to mind poor Leporello even more.



Regards,
Navneeth

Antoine Marchand

Quote from: milk on May 18, 2012, 04:05:33 AM
It's hard for me to do this with my lack of experience in music and in comparing things. It seems like Cooper takes things more slowly and displays clarity. However, Staier is very funny and brash. In the end, I enjoy the sensitivity of Cooper in this case. I'm a fan of Staier and I have many of his recordings but sometimes I feel like he's a quirky performer.

I think similarly: Staier is the absolute star of his three-ring circus.  ;D

Opus106

I never realised they were doing a complete set.

[asin]B007NM8DO8[/asin]
Regards,
Navneeth

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Opus106 on June 12, 2012, 11:03:39 AM
I never realised they were doing a complete set.

[asin]B007NM8DO8[/asin]

Ah, thanks for that info, Navneeth. I enjoyed their Mozart, I expect top enjoy their Beethoven equally. :)

8)
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

kishnevi

Quote from: Opus106 on June 12, 2012, 11:03:39 AM
I never realised they were doing a complete set.

[asin]B007NM8DO8[/asin]

Okay, that's an easy decision.  I have several sets of the sonatas, but all are modern instrument ones.  Onto the "see who gives the best price" list it goes.

Thread duty:  listening at the moment to Op. 3 and 8, as performed by L'Archibudelli.


BTW, my tentative opinion on the Staier Diabelli is that it's a very good performance.

milk

Quote from: Opus106 on June 12, 2012, 11:03:39 AM
I never realised they were doing a complete set.

[asin]B007NM8DO8[/asin]
Thanks! I just downloaded it.

Lilas Pastia

As a francophone quebecer I'm very sensitive to two different facets of my particular linguistic situation. First, I know that I'm speaking my language with an accent that is all but unintelligible to most french speakers from France, Belgium or Switzerland (it's close to french provinces' 17th century speech). Second, I know that my education and the almost manic care we in Quebec treat the french language makes me a formidable guardian of written French.

That being said, I know damn well that the criterium by which the folks in 'the old countries' ( as we say here) will judge my communicating skills will be entirely aural. Whatever I do, they will instantly detect a very heavy 'foreign' accent. That's fine, no problem. The French like whatever is exotic. But if I want to make myself understood I know the accent is not a problem. It's the articulation. Very few people speak their native language with proper articulation. Either the beginning or the end of a word is half swallowed or simply skipped. That becomes especially difficult if the speech pattern is syncopated and fast.

The link I make with the HIP Beethoven discussion is that there is no single, universal way of hearing Beethoven's music (or Haydn's, or Mozart's). Their musical speech pattern may be preserved forever in Bärenreiter scores, but there are plenty of other aspects that we know cannot be replicated. Whoever is of the opinion that Quebec French is closer to 17th century provincial dialects may be right, but they'll never be able to provide an aural proof of that. What is aural is gone the minute it's uttered. Of course we have recordings now, but they didn't exist back then.

Therefore I respectfully submit that there is no single authentic way of approximating how Beethoven's music may have sounded two centuries ago. But one thing I'm quite sure about:  fastidious articulation and proper attention to musical grammar and syntax rules are essential. An instrument is but a tool. An 'authentic' one can be good in the right hands, or bad in the wrong ones.

Use your judgment, but above everything, trust your musical taste and instinct. If the musical result works for you in that it makes you appreciate the music, that's all that counts!

Karl Henning

Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Opus106

Universal's response to HM?


[Image links to Presto]


Diabelli Variations

Beethoven:
   

Diabelli Variations, Op. 120

plus:

Variations on a Waltz by Diabelli

Assmayer • Bocklet • Czapek • Czerny • Dreschler • Freystaedtler • Gänsbacher • Gelinek • Halm • Hoffmann • Horzalka • Huglmann • Hummel • Kalkbrenner • Kerzkowsky • Kreutzer • Lannoy • Leidesdorf • Liszt • Moscheles • W.A. Mozart (son) • Rieger • Roser • Schubert • Stadler • Szalay • Tomaschek (Tomášek) • Winkhler • Wittasek (Vitásek) • Worzischek (Voříšek)

Jörg Demus (fortepiano)

From [the original 'additional' variations], Jörg Demus chooses 32, basing his decisions both on the quality of the pieces themselves, and the playing-time of an LP, on which the recording first appeared. Played on various fortepianos of the time, this marks this unique recording’s first release on CD.
Regards,
Navneeth