Beethoven in Period Performances

Started by Que, April 07, 2007, 07:34:50 AM

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Gurn Blanston

I have been as yet unable to find a single recording of Op 70 #2, the 'non-Ghost' half of this trio opus. Can it be that no PI group has ever recorded it?  Here's an idea; they could link up with a nice PI band and front the Trio Concerto, then fill it up with this wonderful trio. Just a thought... :)

8)
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milk

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 14, 2013, 06:15:06 AM
I have been as yet unable to find a single recording of Op 70 #2, the 'non-Ghost' half of this trio opus. Can it be that no PI group has ever recorded it?  Here's an idea; they could link up with a nice PI band and front the Trio Concerto, then fill it up with this wonderful trio. Just a thought... :)

8)
Not that this is relevant here, but it seems that Schumann's piano trio # 2 has also been neglected in the HIP world. Well, in the interest of relevance, maybe a group could put the Schumann and the Beethoven together. I wonder, are these trios considered inferior?

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: milk on January 14, 2013, 06:37:34 AM
Not that this is relevant here, but it seems that Schumann's piano trio # 2 has also been neglected in the HIP world. Well, in the interest of relevance, maybe a group could put the Schumann and the Beethoven together. I wonder, are these trios considered inferior?

Op 70 #2 never got a name, so clearly it is totally worthless. This despite the fact that it is by far my favorite. It only shows up in full cycles really. I can't imagine why it is neglected. If someone only had the foresight to name it, like, The Cat Trio or something.... :)

8)
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Opus106

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 14, 2013, 06:15:06 AM
I have been as yet unable to find a single recording of Op 70 #2, the 'non-Ghost' half of this trio opus. Can it be that no PI group has ever recorded it?  Here's an idea; they could link up with a nice PI band and front the Trio Concerto, then fill it up with this wonderful trio. Just a thought... :)

8)

Of the vast number of recorded accounts of the piano trios, as far as I know, the only recordings to use historical instruments other than the present one is the fine set of the complete trios recorded by the Castle Trio, three CDs released by Virgin Classics between 1990 and 1992, and a disc with the two op.70 Trios released by the Smithsonian Collection label in 1996.

Source [PDF]

So, to answer your question: yes, it appears that it has been recorded with period instruments.

Good luck finding it, though. ;D
Regards,
Navneeth

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Opus106 on January 14, 2013, 09:00:17 AM
Of the vast number of recorded accounts of the piano trios, as far as I know, the only recordings to use historical instruments other than the present one is the fine set of the complete trios recorded by the Castle Trio, three CDs released by Virgin Classics between 1990 and 1992, and a disc with the two op.70 Trios released by the Smithsonian Collection label in 1996.

Source [PDF]

So, to answer your question: yes, it appears that it has been recorded with period instruments.

Good luck finding it, though. ;D

That's just mean, Navneeth.... :)

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Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 14, 2013, 09:02:50 AM
That's just mean, Navneeth.... :)

8)

Actually, it IS available here and there. No one is giving it away, that's for sure, but I can sell the neighbor's cat, maybe.....  :D

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Old Listener

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 14, 2013, 09:18:34 AM
No one is giving it away, that's for sure, but I can sell the neighbor's cat, maybe..... 

What's a low mileage cat worth these days?


Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Old Listener on January 16, 2013, 04:39:16 PM
What's a low mileage cat worth these days?

~$30 if you haven't rolled the odometer back :D

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Old Listener

#688
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 16, 2013, 06:37:48 PM
~$30 if you haven't rolled the odometer back

I expect that would require thick gloves and face protection. ;D

Thanks for some amusing thoughts.

P.S. Found this on Amazon.

Aaron Copland -  Old American Songs: I Bought Me a Cat (Set One)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00137V2HE/ref=dm_mu_dp_trk14

Pat B

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2011, 01:46:52 PM
Unfortunately yes. My memory played Hob with me again. In combination with the Schuppanzigh disk, I think I have Op 59 #1 & 3. My favorite opus is drastically underserved. :-\

It's true that Beethoven's music is not enhanced as much by PI, that is, some of it isn't, when there is no wind or keyboard for example. Although another facet of period performance is that nearly always, all repeats are observed. This is frequently not the case in modern instrument performances. I personally like repeats, I like the structural balance of them. Just a thought, not a debating point. :)

8)

Sorry to resurrect an old discussion...

"Period instruments" was never the right term for string players. Lots of conventional performers play instruments dating back to the 18th century. Yo-Yo Ma's cello (Montagnana 1733) is older than Anner Bylsma's (Pressenda 1835). (Bylsma has also played a 1669 Gofriller and a 1701 Stradivarius, and a ~1700 piccolo cello, but in most of my collection he played the Pressenda.)

Even so, I think you understated the differences for HIP in string music.

There are several issues that affect all instruments. This includes repeats as you mentioned, but also respect for tempo markings, and use of ornamentation. (Many of them tune lower, which is not a big difference for those of us without absolute pitch.)

Some HIP groups (strings and winds) use dynamic swells all over the place, which I find aggravating. This apparently went out of style a while back, but not before many recordings were made.

A big string-specific difference is use of vibrato. Some (but not all) period groups use it more judiciously than conventional performers. I have a preference for minimal vibrato.

Gut strings have a somewhat different timbre which can be a plus or a minus depending on performer and recording. That's probably the most audible difference in equipment.

So for me, there are some significant differences. I'd like to have all of the Beethoven quartets in HIP (not necessarily by the same quartet). Unfortunately there don't seem to be many recent additions. I'm going to attempt to survey the recordings in my next post.

Pat B

#690
Okay, here goes for the survey of HIP quartet recordings. Thanks to Gurn Blanston whose posts alerted me to most of these. I just wanted to consolidate the information. Actually, I hope this is incomplete because I want there to be more.

Op. 18#1-6. Smithson Quartet 1988. This is Jaap Schroder, Marilyn McDonald, Judson Griffin, and Kenneth Slowik. Originally released directly by the Smithsonian on 3 discs, it has been re-issued at least twice by DHM on 2 discs which is currently very affordable ($14.32 from Amazon, even less from third parties). I bought used and lucked out by getting the original issue (purple cover). Looking at the timings, the DHM issues squeezed it onto 2 CDs by deleting the repeats in 3.4 and 4.3. I would still consider it a bargain, compared to the alternatives. Performance and sound are very good.

Op. 18#1-6. Quatuor Mosaiques mid-90s on Auvidis Astree-Naive. Apparently both issues were on 3 separate discs. The 1&4 disc is available on its own, or in a 5 CD set that also includes Haydn, Mozart, Schubert, and Mendelssohn. 5&6 seems to have good availability. 2&3 is only available from third parties and is pricier ($27+). I have not heard this other than samples.

Op. 18#1-6. Turner Quartet 1995 on Harmonia Mundi, 2 CDs. Based on timings, some repeats must have been omitted, if that matters to you. Out of print and currently expensive ($60+). I have not heard it at all. General opinion seems to be positive.

Op. 18#4, 59#3. Schuppanzigh Quartet 1999 on Ars Musici. No sellers on amazon, but it's available here. I have not heard it at all. Both of these pieces are available on other HIP recordings. This web page indicates this was performed on violin-viola-cello-bass (EDIT: which is not the case).

Op. 18#4. Windermere Quartet 2010 on Pipistrelle. Coupled with Mozart and Haydn. Readily available as of May 2014. I have not heard it at all.

Op. 18#6, 132. Quatuor Terpsycordes 2013 on Ambronay. I have not heard it yet.

Op. 74, 95, 135. Eroica Quartet 2000 on HM. Thanks again to Gurn Blanston, I have this on order. Reviews have been mixed but AFAIK, this is the only HIP recording of 95 and 135 (edit: no longer the only one for 95), and it's affordable at the moment.

Op. 59#3, 74. Turner Quartet 2001 on HM. I have not heard it at all. Mandryka made an interesting comparison to the Eroica in this thread (posts 664 and 673). It's in the $25 range on the amazon marketplace.

Op. 95. Chiaroscuro Quartet 2012 on Aparte. Coupled with Mozart. I have not heard it.

Op. 132. Edding Quartet 2016? on Phi. Coupled with the Piano+Wind Quintet op. 16.

That's all I know of (additions are welcome). So we have 3 choices in op. 18#1-6, plus a fourth (and now a fifth) of 18#4, two choices of 59#3, two of 74 (on the same label and only a year apart!), and one each of 95 and 135 (and now one each of 130 and 132, and now 2 of 95). But there are none of 59#1, 59#2, 127, or 131, and in order to get 59#3 or 132 you have to duplicate other pieces. Half of the releases are out of print and expensive. There's not much momentum either -- the most recent recording is now 12 years old (happily no longer true!). Meanwhile the already-saturated market for conventional performances continues to add options. Grrr. I'd love to see some new recordings, but barring that, hopefully HM will reissue the Turner discs.

I hope this has been helpful.

EDIT: I received the Schuppanzigh disc and the instrumentation is conventional (2 violins, viola, cello). I have no idea where Ms. Laurent got the idea that a double bass was involved.

EDIT: Added the new Windermere disc, thanks to sanantonio. Hopefully there are more to come (from them and others).
EDIT: Added the new Terpsycordes disc, thanks to amw.
EDIT: Added the new-ish Chiaroscuro disc, thanks to amw.
EDIT: Added the not-yet-released Edding disc.

Gurn Blanston

Yes, helpful indeed. I haven't ever consolidated the information, and relying on memory can be a bit much sometimes. :)

I recently got a 2 disk set on Challenge Classics of the Kuijken Quartet doing the complete Op 59. Oh, how happy I was! One of my favorite 4tets doing one of my favorite opuses. Imagine my chagrin when, on reading the liner notes, Sigi jumped right in and said that he couldn't see any reason to play Beethoven on gut strings, and therefore they had elected to play this on modern instruments. >:(   Like there aren't already dozens and dozens of versions on modern instruments, most of them pretty damned fine for what they are. Here is one reason, Sigi: gut strings don't sound like steel strings. Like I need to tell him that.  ::)  So that set has been sitting on the shelf for 6-8 months unplayed. I suppose I'll get around to it one day....

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San Antone

I find it interesting that the PI quartets have recorded Op. 18 complete, almost 4x but left other opus numbers untouched or only partially recorded, once.  I wonder if that is because of the nature of the music?  The Op. 18 quartets are lighter and more akin to Haydn's music, whereas as Beethoven progressed (?), his quartets became more large-scale and, possibly, modern instruments more up to the task of presenting them in all their glory.

Could be what Kuijken was alluding to.

Just one of my silly ideas ...

;)

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: sanantonio on March 14, 2013, 11:03:52 AM
I find it interesting that the PI quartets have recorded Op. 18 complete, almost 4x but left other opus numbers untouched or only partially recorded, once.  I wonder if that is because of the nature of the music?  The Op. 18 quartets are lighter and more akin to Haydn's music, whereas as Beethoven progressed (?), his quartets became more large-scale and, possibly, modern instruments more up to the task of presenting them in all their glory.

Could be what Kuijken was alluding to.

Just one of my silly ideas ...

;)

Not just yours; that's what I have thought all along. I got the Smithson set years ago, my search beyond that has been dismally difficult, and so I have had time to ponder it. :)  But in talking with a few other enthusiasts, the consensus has been that with a few exceptions (Op 74, 95 & 135) the rest of the later works are just too challenging for PI groups. Which is silly, of course, since groups like the Schuppanzigh's are fronted by Steck, one of the great fiddlers. It's a head scratcher.... :-\

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Opus106

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 14, 2013, 11:21:29 AM
But in talking with a few other enthusiasts, the consensus has been that with a few exceptions (Op 74, 95 & 135) the rest of the later works are just too challenging for PI groups.

8)

So what did they do, then, in Beethoven's time -- preimiered them, found the going too difficult and shelved the lot?
Regards,
Navneeth

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Opus106 on March 14, 2013, 11:09:04 PM
So what did they do, then, in Beethoven's time -- preimiered them, found the going too difficult and shelved the lot?

Actually, many of them did. That is the context of Beethoven's famous shouted quote to Schuppanzigh "I don't give a damn about your violin..." etc. Many of the late works went unplayed for years after his death, only catching on in the mid/late 19th century. :)

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Opus106

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 15, 2013, 04:27:03 AM
Actually, many of them did. That is the context of Beethoven's famous shouted quote to Schuppanzigh "I don't give a damn about your violin..." etc. Many of the late works went unplayed for years after his death, only catching on in the mid/late 19th century. :)

8)

Not surprising, though. :)
Regards,
Navneeth

San Antone

Quote from: Opus106 on March 15, 2013, 06:54:44 AM
Not surprising, though. :)

This may be a politically incorrect statement, but I do not enjoy late Beethoven works as much as his earlier works.  This is true especially for the piano sonatas and string quartets.


Opus106

Quote from: sanantonio on March 15, 2013, 07:05:04 AM
This may be a politically incorrect statement, but I do not enjoy late Beethoven works as much as his earlier works.  This is true especially for the piano sonatas and string quartets.

And this may be an incorrectlier* thing to do: I share your liking for both ends of Beethoven's creative spectrum (and everything in between, of course).




*Hi, Cato!
Regards,
Navneeth

milk

Quote from: sanantonio on March 14, 2013, 11:03:52 AM
I find it interesting that the PI quartets have recorded Op. 18 complete, almost 4x but left other opus numbers untouched or only partially recorded, once.  I wonder if that is because of the nature of the music?  The Op. 18 quartets are lighter and more akin to Haydn's music, whereas as Beethoven progressed (?), his quartets became more large-scale and, possibly, modern instruments more up to the task of presenting them in all their glory.

Could be what Kuijken was alluding to.

Just one of my silly ideas ...

;)
I'm having a hard time understanding this thread. People are saying that violins, violas and cellos as they existed at the time Beethoven wrote his late compositions weren't as up to the challenge of playing the music as modern violins, violas and cellos are? Is this true? So is Beethoven's late music is harder to play than any music written previously? Harder than, say, Bach's solo violin music? My curiosity is peaked.