Beethoven in Period Performances

Started by Que, April 07, 2007, 07:34:50 AM

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Florestan

Quote from: milk on March 17, 2013, 12:06:09 PM
I'm having a hard time understanding this thread. People are saying that violins, violas and cellos as they existed at the time Beethoven wrote his late compositions weren't as up to the challenge of playing the music as modern violins, violas and cellos are? Is this true? So is Beethoven's late music is harder to play than any music written previously? Harder than, say, Bach's solo violin music? My curiosity is peaked.

I'm puzzled too. A lot (most?) of the contemporay violinists play on instruments made by Stradivarius, Guarnieri and Amati, i.e as historical as it gets. The violins that some non-HIP performers play are even older than those of some HIPsters.  ???

Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Gurn Blanston

Two different questions. Well, pretty much different.

Could the instruments play it?  Sure.

Could the players play it? Well, certainly a few of them could. Schuppanzigh could (did) after a lot more practice. IIRC, he complained that he only had a week to practice with it and it was too hard for that. Bear in mind though; these guys used to play most music with little or no practice at all! So playing it after a quick run-through was right out!

I have sometimes thought that an interesting analog would be the "Queen of the Night" aria from The Magic Flute. Mozart wrote it specifically for his sister-in-law Josepha Hofer to take advantage of her extraordinary tessitura. Many (most) singers at the time couldn't sing it at pitch. Now, however, lots of singers must sing it. And they must sing a lot of other roles that were custom made too if they are going to be considered well-rounded singers.

The point being that there was enough music being presented back then that if you were a fiddler or a cellist or a coloratura soprano and you weren't up to playing/singing something then there was other stuff for you to do. Today, if you are in a string quartet and want to rise to the top, you better damn sure be able to play Beethoven!  Does that mean musicians today are better than they were then? Well, they are certainly trained better, and more well-rounded than they used to be. I doubt very much that the true professionals and the virtuosi are any better now or then though. And they don't have to be a valet or footman on their off time either. Different times. :)

8)
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Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

milk

#702
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 17, 2013, 01:08:29 PM
Two different questions. Well, pretty much different.

Could the instruments play it?  Sure.

Could the players play it? Well, certainly a few of them could. Schuppanzigh could (did) after a lot more practice. IIRC, he complained that he only had a week to practice with it and it was too hard for that. Bear in mind though; these guys used to play most music with little or no practice at all! So playing it after a quick run-through was right out!

I have sometimes thought that an interesting analog would be the "Queen of the Night" aria from The Magic Flute. Mozart wrote it specifically for his sister-in-law Josepha Hofer to take advantage of her extraordinary tessitura. Many (most) singers at the time couldn't sing it at pitch. Now, however, lots of singers must sing it. And they must sing a lot of other roles that were custom made too if they are going to be considered well-rounded singers.

The point being that there was enough music being presented back then that if you were a fiddler or a cellist or a coloratura soprano and you weren't up to playing/singing something then there was other stuff for you to do. Today, if you are in a string quartet and want to rise to the top, you better damn sure be able to play Beethoven!  Does that mean musicians today are better than they were then? Well, they are certainly trained better, and more well-rounded than they used to be. I doubt very much that the true professionals and the virtuosi are any better now or then though. And they don't have to be a valet or footman on their off time either. Different times. :)

8)
Thanks a lot. Very nice explanation. So, some people believe that HIP performers just aren't as skilled as modern instrument performers? Is that common? Honestly, I don't currently listen to a lot of music that doesn't have a keyboard. So, is Beethoven's late string music much harder to play than, say, the piano trios of Schubert, Schumann and Brahms (all music available from PI groups)? It's interesting that Kuijken would say that. I have a CD of the Kuijkens playing Debussy's violin sonatas, cello sonatas and string quartet in G minor on period instruments. It sounds like difficult music, but what do I know (nearly nothing, actually, about playing these instruments)!

Florestan

Quote from: milk on March 17, 2013, 09:19:19 PM
Thanks a lot. Very nice explanation.

I concur. A great post in the Gurnian tradition of excellence.  :)
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

milk

Quote from: Florestan on March 17, 2013, 11:49:24 PM
I concur. A great post in the Gurnian tradition of excellence.  :)
Yeah. It makes sense too. I guess it's like athletes maybe? Dr J. was perhaps just as skilled as LeBron James. But, James received much better and more comprehensive training on every aspect of his game and body. Does that sound like a good analogy? I read a review of a Cafe Zimmermann release (way off topic!) that suggested that Bach never had a group of performers at his disposal as good as Cafe Zimmermann. 

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: milk on March 18, 2013, 04:13:37 AM
Yeah. It makes sense too. I guess it's like athletes maybe? Dr J. was perhaps just as skilled as LeBron James. But, James received much better and more comprehensive training on every aspect of his game and body. Does that sound like a good analogy? I read a review of a Cafe Zimmermann release (way off topic!) that suggested that Bach never had a group of performers at his disposal as good as Cafe Zimmermann.

I strongly suspect that this is quite true. It is one thing to say that your band has a great fiddler, or the best oboist of his time, but when it is constituted of people who are all of that quality, that had to be a great rarity in the 18th century. Not to inject Haydn needlessly into this discussion, but that was one of his great advantages; he had one of the (if not the) best bands in Europe at the time. We laugh now at the concept of someone saying 'we need a flute, go get the cook', but I venture that isn't the first time that's been said, usually more seriously than I am. :D

8)

PS - I agree with your basketball analogy 100%.
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Florestan on March 17, 2013, 11:49:24 PM
I concur. A great post in the Gurnian tradition of excellence.  :)

:-[  Merci. :)

8)
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Florestan

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 17, 2013, 01:08:29 PM
Could the players play it? Well, certainly a few of them could. Schuppanzigh could (did) after a lot more practice. IIRC, he complained that he only had a week to practice with it and it was too hard for that. Bear in mind though; these guys used to play most music with little or no practice at all! So playing it after a quick run-through was right out!

Could it be that for this very reason a certain coarseness and carelesness and even a few wrong notes and tempi here and there are de rigueur when performing Haydn, Mozart and early Beethoven?  :D
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Florestan on March 21, 2013, 12:36:42 PM
Could it be that for this very reason a certain coarseness and carelesness and even a few wrong notes and tempi here and there are de rigueur when performing Haydn, Mozart and early Beethoven?  :D

Just being authentic, Ma'am.... :)

Frankly, I don't hear that stuff, but I suppose it is out there in the PI world as much as in the MI world. It's a hell of a lot easier to screw up on a period instrument than a modern one. Ease of playing is one of the aded features of evolution, after all. :)

8)
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Florestan

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2013, 12:55:33 PM
Just being authentic, Ma'am.... :)

Frankly, I don't hear that stuff, but I suppose it is out there in the PI world as much as in the MI world. It's a hell of a lot easier to screw up on a period instrument than a modern one. Ease of playing is one of the aded features of evolution, after all. :)

8)

Oh, that was not a criticism addressed at PI, I'm sure they rehearse just as much as MI and are not at all careless about how they play; like you, I didn't hear that stuff in any PI I've heard. It was just a theoretical thought inspired by your post.    :)
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Geo Dude

Any thoughts on Immerseel's sixth in his Beethoven cycle?

Geo Dude

Oh well, I'll start:

I asked about the Immerseel sixth because I've found the other symphonies in that set excellent but think that the sixth didn't come off well.  He seems to lose the structure of the work and get caught up in details; it somehow feels meandering in spite of the brisk tempo.  I just wanted to find out if anyone else felt the same way.

On a lighter note, this is wonderful:



Any other suggestions for the violin concerto?

Parsifal

#712
Quote from: Florestan on March 17, 2013, 12:17:57 PM
I'm puzzled too. A lot (most?) of the contemporay violinists play on instruments made by Stradivarius, Guarnieri and Amati, i.e as historical as it gets. The violins that some non-HIP performers play are even older than those of some HIPsters.  ???

The Stradivarius violins in use in non-HIP ensembles have been significantly modified.  The neck, bridge and body have typically been reinforced to sustain the higher tension of metal strings.  The bridge is more curved so the middle strings stand higher off the instrument, facilitating passage work but making the multiple stops written by Bach  in his unaccompanied violin music unplayable.  The modern bow is also a lot different.  HIP musicians play instruments which are unmodified, or which have been restored to their original configuration.

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Geo Dude on April 21, 2013, 08:49:31 PM
Oh well, I'll start:

I asked about the Immerseel sixth because I've found the other symphonies in that set excellent but think that the sixth didn't come off well.  He seems to lose the structure of the work and get caught up in details; it somehow feels meandering in spite of the brisk tempo.  I just wanted to find out if anyone else felt the same way.

On a lighter note, this is wonderful:



Any other suggestions for the violin concerto?

I like that Beths concerto, but I like this one a lot more. I have a lot of PI versions but this is the mainstay;

[asin]B002N1RM5K[/asin]

It is shocking in a way; when I bought this in its first incarnation it was OOP and a long hunt led me to a copy for ~$25 (I saw it for $50 regularly) which delighted me no end. Now, I see this reprint available brand new for $6.20 and you just have to wonder. In any case, it's a bargain, Zehetmair is excellent in Beethoven, he doesn't let the size of the work overwhelm him.  :)

8)
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Geo Dude

Thanks Gurn, I suspect that that will sneak into next month's orders.

Parsifal

It is a crime that almost everything the Franz Bruggen recorded is out-of-print.   He turns 80 next year, maybe there will be some releases to commemorate that, at least.

Pat B

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 22, 2013, 04:28:24 AM
I like that Beths concerto, but I like this one a lot more. I have a lot of PI versions but this is the mainstay;

From the samples I've heard (I re-listened to them yesterday), Zehetmair sounds good but not very period. It sounds like the Orchestra of the 18th Century with the Soloist of the 20th. JMO based on the samples and not necessarily a criticism.

The next one on my wishlist is Kopatchinskaja, who seems HIP except for the overdubbed cadenza. But I'm not in much of a hurry because I love the Beths. The ending, especially -- an exuberant triumph.

This thread has put quite a dent in my wallet. The Eroica Quartet disc arrived a while ago. First impression of it was good but not great. The Schuppanzigh Quartet is on its way (slowly).

I also got Komen playing the last 3 sonatas, and volumes 1 & 2 of the Karttunen-Hakkila cello-fortepiano works. I don't have anything to compare these to, but I'm very happy with them. Unfortunately volume 3 of Karttunen-Hakkila is now scarce, so I took a flyer on a Zivian-Tomkins disc that covers the same music (plus the op. 126 Bagatelles). The latter hasn't gotten much discussion online, but what I've read has been positive. That showed up from Berkshire today, along with the Fleezanis-Huve violin sonatas and syms. 5 and 6 by Tafelmusik.

Finally, shortly after deciding to take a break from buying more 9ths, I ordered Herreweghe's first recording of it. Hopefully I'll listen to it tomorrow.

mszczuj

Quote from: Pat B on April 23, 2013, 10:26:36 PM
and volumes 1 & 2 of the Karttunen-Hakkila cello-fortepiano works. I don't have anything to compare these to, but I'm very happy with them

Of all the Beethoven records I have heard so far, Karttunen-Hakkila set is the closest to the way I think his music should be played.

kishnevi

(cross posted from the main WAYLT thread after a first listen to this newly arrived CD)

Penelope Crawford playing Beethoven Sonatas 30-32

A counterintiutive reaction.  Perhaps I've encountered the (for me) limits of period performance.

On the plus side,  Crawford's playing is superfragilisticexpialadociously good.
On the down side,  she's playing a fortepiano, and I kept wishing she was playing on a modern grand.

Perhaps it's because I'm so used to hearing these works on a modern instrument, that the latter is imprinted on my brain.  But her excellent playing seemed to be undercut by the instrument.  I quite literally kept thinking "oh, this would be wonderful on a concert grand!"  I kept hearing a first rate pianist trying to play on a second rate piano.

to be clear, the CD is well worth getting,  and she won't be entirely absent from my CD player, but I can't summon the fist pumping table pounding enthusiasm of Brian and some others here.

milk

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 27, 2013, 02:16:12 PM
(cross posted from the main WAYLT thread after a first listen to this newly arrived CD)

Penelope Crawford playing Beethoven Sonatas 30-32

A counterintiutive reaction.  Perhaps I've encountered the (for me) limits of period performance.

On the plus side,  Crawford's playing is superfragilisticexpialadociously good.
On the down side,  she's playing a fortepiano, and I kept wishing she was playing on a modern grand.

Perhaps it's because I'm so used to hearing these works on a modern instrument, that the latter is imprinted on my brain.  But her excellent playing seemed to be undercut by the instrument.  I quite literally kept thinking "oh, this would be wonderful on a concert grand!"  I kept hearing a first rate pianist trying to play on a second rate piano.

to be clear, the CD is well worth getting,  and she won't be entirely absent from my CD player, but I can't summon the fist pumping table pounding enthusiasm of Brian and some others here.
So you don't like period pianos...