Beethoven in Period Performances

Started by Que, April 07, 2007, 07:34:50 AM

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J.A.W.

Though I generally like HIP performances, I can't get into fortepianos either. To my ears the instrument is limited in its expressiveness and dynamic range and its sound is thin. I probably missed out on a lot of musically interesting CDs because of it, but on the plus side that has saved me a lot of money... :)
Hans

San Antone

If you have trouble with Penelope Crawford's fortepiano, none will satisfy you.

kishnevi

#722
Quote from: milk on April 27, 2013, 04:47:23 PM
So you don't like period pianos...
Quote from: sanantonio on April 27, 2013, 05:49:26 PM
If you have trouble with Penelope Crawford's fortepiano, none will satisfy you.

Actually, I do like them!  Which is why I'm a little disappointed here.  I vastly prefer both Mozart and Haydn keyboard works when played on period instruments, which is why I'm a fan of van Oort and Beghin (respectively) and Brautigam's Haydn as well.

However, in thinking it over after my original post,  I think I know why.  The further past 1800 an instrument gets,  the less I like it.  It begins to sound merely like a second rate modern piano.  In addition, these are the last three sonatas, and perhaps Beethoven was going past the actual instruments of his day when he wrote this.  The actual instrument Crawford uses is an 1835 Graf--that is, a piano built eight years after Beethoven's death, so strictly speaking it's not even contemporary with the composer.

I liked--mildly, but still positively--the one CD of Komen I have (with the Appassionata and two other sonatas).  I think I would react more positively to a recording using a somewhat older instrument in which sonatas from earlier in Beethoven's life featured..  Which is why the other Komen CDs remain on my "need to get around to getting this" list.

ETA: and just to be clear,  I think Crawford's playing is first rate.  My problems are only with the instrument, not the pianist.

San Antone

This is a new (to me) set of the cello sonatas done with fortepiano and an appropriate cello:

BEETHOVEN | Cello Sonatas Nos. 1 and 2 / Variations, Op. 66 and WoO 45

Rainer Zipperling, violoncello (Barak Norman, London 1701)
Boyan Vodenitcharov, fortepiano (after Anton Walter, Vienna 1795 by Chris Maene, 2008)



Don't know if there is a vol. 2, I wasn't able to locate it with a quick search.

I haven't heard the Karttunen/Hakkila, but I have heard the Bylsma/Bilson and this one compares nicely.  It is found on NML and MOG, probably Spotify as well. 

milk

#724
Quote from: sanantonio on April 27, 2013, 05:49:26 PM
If you have trouble with Penelope Crawford's fortepiano, none will satisfy you.
I also love her pianos and her playing on Musica Omnia's piano trio, quartet and quintet releases (including the Beethoven trios). Also, Musica Omnia does a great job with their recording quality.   

Wakefield

Quote from: sanantonio on April 27, 2013, 06:50:40 PM
This is a new (to me) set of the cello sonatas done with fortepiano and an appropriate cello:

BEETHOVEN | Cello Sonatas Nos. 1 and 2 / Variations, Op. 66 and WoO 45

Rainer Zipperling, violoncello (Barak Norman, London 1701)
Boyan Vodenitcharov, fortepiano (after Anton Walter, Vienna 1795 by Chris Maene, 2008)



Don't know if there is a vol. 2, I wasn't able to locate it with a quick search.

I haven't heard the Karttunen/Hakkila, but I have heard the Bylsma/Bilson and this one compares nicely.  It is found on NML and MOG, probably Spotify as well.

These cello sonatas have very good versions on period instruments. Bylsma/Immerseel and Tanya Tomkins/Eric Zivian should be considered too. Both of them are excellent.
"One of the greatest misfortunes of honest people is that they are cowards. They complain, keep quiet, dine and forget."
-- Voltaire

Mandryka

#726
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 27, 2013, 02:16:12 PM
(cross posted from the main WAYLT thread after a first listen to this newly arrived CD)

Penelope Crawford playing Beethoven Sonatas 30-32

A counterintiutive reaction.  Perhaps I've encountered the (for me) limits of period performance.

On the plus side,  Crawford's playing is superfragilisticexpialadociously good.
On the down side,  she's playing a fortepiano, and I kept wishing she was playing on a modern grand.

Perhaps it's because I'm so used to hearing these works on a modern instrument, that the latter is imprinted on my brain.  But her excellent playing seemed to be undercut by the instrument.  I quite literally kept thinking "oh, this would be wonderful on a concert grand!"  I kept hearing a first rate pianist trying to play on a second rate piano.

to be clear, the CD is well worth getting,  and she won't be entirely absent from my CD player, but I can't summon the fist pumping table pounding enthusiasm of Brian and some others here.

I disagree with you about this. I think the problem is with Penelope Crawford's playing, not with the instrument.

I'll give you an example. She plays the allegro of op111/i in a physical and virtuosic and extrovert style. It's fast and furious and without contrasting emotions - passages which are lively and passages which are darker and more internal. The result is one dimensional and hence  superficial.

I think you can play late Beethoven well on an old piano, Tom Beghin's op 111 is an example, and there are others. But I don't think Crawford is up to it yet.

By the way, I'm not sure that the old piano adds anything really important, just a different sound which you can either take or leave. There are time when I think it does, that Beghin gets a very percussive effect which is really interesting which you just couldn't get on a metal framed piano (in op 111/ii), but I'm not sure.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

milk

Quote from: Mandryka on April 28, 2013, 09:42:16 AM
I disagree with you about this. I think the problem is with Penelope Crawford's playing, not with the instrument.

I'll give you an example. She plays the allegro of op111/i in a physical and virtuosic and extrovert style. It's fast and furious and without contrasting emotions - passages which are lively and passages which are darker and more internal. The result is one dimensional and hence  superficial.

I think you can play late Beethoven well on an old piano, Tom Beghin's op 111 is an example, and there are others. But I don't think Crawford is up to it yet.

By the way, I'm not sure that the old piano adds anything really important, just a different sound which you can either take or leave. There are time when I think it does, that Beghin gets a very percussive effect which is really interesting which you just couldn't get on a metal framed piano (in op 111/ii), but I'm not sure.
How do you think Lubimov compares? He has a recording of the same program.

Brian

Quote from: milk on April 28, 2013, 02:21:33 PM
How do you think Lubimov compares? He has a recording of the same program.
I personally am one of the Crawford cheerleaders, but I preferred her to Lubimov because of a slightly warmer-hued piano and Lubimov's occasional eccentricities. Haven't compared them in about a year, but Lubimov is a more idiosyncratic performer, and there was a little less poetry than I had heard in his Schubert.

Anyway, look forward to other comments comparing them.

kishnevi

#729
Beghin has recorded Beethoven?  My interest is aroused.....
ETA:  Found the set, and remember seeing it mentioned here before.   But the current price is a bit rich for my wallet.  $199 for a used copy    But the Atlantis Trio discs are definitely interesting, and PI performance of Schubert song cycles, one wonders how those will turn out.

BTW, although it was entirely secondary so I didn't mention it,  milk's comment about the label's quality sonics is certainly correct.  And I have enough respect for Crawford's playing that I'll also be checking into the chamber works alluded to.

milk

Quote from: Brian on April 28, 2013, 02:54:27 PM
I personally am one of the Crawford cheerleaders, but I preferred her to Lubimov because of a slightly warmer-hued piano and Lubimov's occasional eccentricities. Haven't compared them in about a year, but Lubimov is a more idiosyncratic performer, and there was a little less poetry than I had heard in his Schubert.

Anyway, look forward to other comments comparing them.
It's off-topic, but I really enjoy Lubimov's Debussy recording on period pianos. On topic: I wonder about recordings of Diabelli variations. I have Cooper and Staier on period pianos. I prefer the Cooper but I can't say exactly why. What is it about Lubimov that seems eccentric? I would say the same thing about Staier's Diabelli vs. Cooper's. But I don't have the musical knowledge to say why and I haven't listened to the music over and over again like I have much of Bach. Staier's playing on that recording distracts me from the music. But maybe I need to give it another chance.

Mandryka

#731
Quote from: milk on April 29, 2013, 06:18:10 AM
It's off-topic, but I really enjoy Lubimov's Debussy recording on period pianos. On topic: I wonder about recordings of Diabelli variations. I have Cooper and Staier on period pianos. I prefer the Cooper but I can't say exactly why. What is it about Lubimov that seems eccentric? I would say the same thing about Staier's Diabelli vs. Cooper's. But I don't have the musical knowledge to say why and I haven't listened to the music over and over again like I have much of Bach. Staier's playing on that recording distracts me from the music. But maybe I need to give it another chance.

Maybe we could start with a list of recorded fp performances of the DVs. Demus, Komen, Staier, Cooper, Batterby Anyone else, maybe not commercialy recorded? AFAIK nothing from Badura Skoda on any type of instrument, and nothing from Brautigham or Beghin or Bilson or Lubimov that I've ever come across.

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Mandryka on April 29, 2013, 08:25:37 AM
Maybe we could start with a list of recorded fp performances of the DVs. Demus, Komen, Staier, Cooper, Batterby Anyone else, maybe not commercialy recorded? AFAIK nothing from Badura Skoda on any type of instrument, and nothing from Brautigham or Beghin or Bilson that I've ever come across.

William Kinderman. He wrote a book on the Diabelli's, and recorded them (on a fp) at the same time. I have heard that it is quite excellent, but I don't have a copy to relate firsthand. Similar situation to Rosen's late sonatas, I would think.

8)
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Mandryka

#733
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 29, 2013, 08:30:01 AM
William Kinderman. He wrote a book on the Diabelli's, and recorded them (on a fp) at the same time. I have heard that it is quite excellent, but I don't have a copy to relate firsthand. Similar situation to Rosen's late sonatas, I would think.

8)

Ah. Somehow I had remembered Kinderman's Arietta CD  using a modern piano.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

milk

Quote from: Mandryka on April 29, 2013, 08:25:37 AM
Maybe we could start with a list of recorded fp performances of the DVs. Demus, Komen, Staier, Cooper, Batterby Anyone else, maybe not commercialy recorded? AFAIK nothing from Badura Skoda on any type of instrument, and nothing from Brautigham or Beghin or Bilson or Lubimov that I've ever come across.
Wow, Demus recorded it on FP? I mentioned in another thread that I just saw him last week in concert (on a modern piano), in a small room for his Japanese students, here in Japan. It was an experience that I'll treasure. Perhaps I'll seek out this DV. Thanks.   

Opus106

Quote from: milk on April 29, 2013, 08:51:04 AM
Wow, Demus recorded it on FP? I mentioned in another thread that I just saw him last week in concert (on a modern piano), in a small room for his Japanese students, here in Japan. It was an experience that I'll treasure. Perhaps I'll seek out this DV. Thanks.   

Quote from: Opus106 on July 17, 2012, 08:49:41 AM
Universal's response to HM?


[Image links to Presto]


Diabelli Variations

Beethoven:
   

Diabelli Variations, Op. 120

plus:

Variations on a Waltz by Diabelli

Assmayer • Bocklet • Czapek • Czerny • Dreschler • Freystaedtler • Gänsbacher • Gelinek • Halm • Hoffmann • Horzalka • Huglmann • Hummel • Kalkbrenner • Kerzkowsky • Kreutzer • Lannoy • Leidesdorf • Liszt • Moscheles • W.A. Mozart (son) • Rieger • Roser • Schubert • Stadler • Szalay • Tomaschek (Tomášek) • Winkhler • Wittasek (Vitásek) • Worzischek (Voříšek)

Jörg Demus (fortepiano)

From [the original 'additional' variations], Jörg Demus chooses 32, basing his decisions both on the quality of the pieces themselves, and the playing-time of an LP, on which the recording first appeared. Played on various fortepianos of the time, this marks this unique recording's first release on CD.

Regards,
Navneeth

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Mandryka on April 29, 2013, 08:38:54 AM
Ah. Somehow I had remembered Kinderman's Arietta CD  using a modern piano.

well, as I said I don't have the disk, just read about it. In his other Beethoven book, which I have, he champions the fp concept pretty hard. It's possible that I assumed.

8)
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

San Antone

I wonder why Brautigam has not included the DV in his "complete" keyboard works cycle?  Is it not finished?

Opus106

Quote from: North Star on April 29, 2013, 09:11:03 AM
Michael Leslie, too.

Samples sound remarkably like a concert grand!

Quote from: sanantonio on April 29, 2013, 09:15:46 AM
I wonder why Brautigam has not included the DV in his "complete" keyboard works cycle?  Is it not finished?

As long as we don't see a box at the horizon, we can hope for one. ;)
Regards,
Navneeth

Brian

Quote from: sanantonio on April 29, 2013, 09:15:46 AM
I wonder why Brautigam has not included the DV in his "complete" keyboard works cycle?  Is it not finished?
Nope, not finished. The last volume (which came 12 months ago) was a series of unpublished variations composed during the study years, so he's being very thorough. I wouldn't be surprised if the Diabellis are the final capstone to the project.