Author Topic: Beethoven in Period Performances  (Read 232611 times)

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Offline Florestan

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #820 on: November 12, 2015, 09:38:09 AM »
The "Farewell" Encore . . . .

Oh, no, not at all... the "debut" encore --- she at the piano and my son at the violin will be at least as good and famous as Haskil / Szeryng or Oistrakh / Oborin or Szigeti / Arrau...


"Beauty must appeal to the senses, must provide us with immediate enjoyment, must impress us or insinuate itself into us without any effort on our part."

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Offline (poco) Sforzando

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #821 on: November 12, 2015, 09:47:26 AM »
Hah!

That's nothing. Busoni hated to perform at parties, but once he was so badgered to play after a dinner that he sat down at the piano and played all five Beethoven late sonatas.

I don't know if he played an encore.
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Offline Florestan

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #822 on: November 12, 2015, 09:53:51 AM »
That's nothing. Busoni hated to perform at parties, but once he was so badgered to play after a dinner that he sat down at the piano and played all five Beethoven late sonatas.

Is there any recording of that?  :D
"Beauty must appeal to the senses, must provide us with immediate enjoyment, must impress us or insinuate itself into us without any effort on our part."

 --- Claude Debussy

Offline Leo K.

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #823 on: December 05, 2015, 05:11:40 PM »


It's been many years since I heard Gardiner's Beethoven. I wasn't a fan. Yet, upon hearing this wonderful recording, I decided a re-listen to Gardiner's account of the symphonies is in order.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2015, 05:13:24 PM by Leo K. »

Offline amw

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #824 on: December 12, 2015, 03:13:29 PM »
Are there any period instrument versions of the Piano Concertos that use Beethoven's cadenzas instead of relying on the (generally inferior) improvisation skills of the (20th-21st century) pianist?

(I mean, Beethoven literally wrote his cadenzas as a guide to how to improvise your own for other pianists of his day who were less skilled. Though not exactly contemporary with the concertos themselves, they're only a decade or so later, and I'd have thought they'd be much more historically accurate than the improvisations of a contemporary pianist who didn't grow up with that tradition at all.)
« Last Edit: December 12, 2015, 03:15:07 PM by amw »

Offline Que

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #825 on: December 13, 2015, 09:22:34 AM »
Good question... I know Schoonderwoerd didn't use Beethoven's cadenzas, neither did Van Immerseel....

Q

Offline Florestan

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #826 on: December 13, 2015, 01:00:28 PM »
Schoonderwoerd

If you ask me, his Beethoven´s PC series is the worst recording of anything, by anyone, ever.  ;D ;D ;D
"Beauty must appeal to the senses, must provide us with immediate enjoyment, must impress us or insinuate itself into us without any effort on our part."

 --- Claude Debussy

kishnevi

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #827 on: December 13, 2015, 01:01:47 PM »
Beethoven's cadenzas are used in this set, per the track listings


I am posting this issue because 1)I have it  and 2)It is the most complete set (Choral Fantasy is not included on the alternate reissues)

Offline (poco) Sforzando

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #828 on: December 13, 2015, 03:02:21 PM »
If you ask me, his Beethoven´s PC series is the worst recording of anything, by anyone, ever.  ;D ;D ;D

Hallelujah! someone's got their ears on straight!  :) ;D :laugh:
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Offline SimonNZ

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #829 on: December 13, 2015, 03:19:34 PM »
If you ask me, his Beethoven´s PC series is the worst recording of anything, by anyone, ever.  ;D ;D ;D

I thought they were a fascinating exercise. They exposed as many limitations to the idea as there were positive aspects, and was attempted with intelligence and sincerity, not as the more usual enfant terrible. They made a good provocative think-piece which helped me clarify what I like and expect from HIP Beethoven and why, even if I never need to hear them again in the near future.

Of course they shouldn't be anyone's first or only Beethoven PC set... and I was shaking my head and laughing all the way through the Emperor.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 07:33:25 PM by SimonNZ »

Offline (poco) Sforzando

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #830 on: December 13, 2015, 07:32:04 PM »
Of course they shouldn't be anyone's first or only Beethoven PC set... and I was shaking my head and laughing all the way through the Emperor.

Sounds like said Emperor has no clothes.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Online Brian

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #831 on: December 13, 2015, 08:04:10 PM »
If you ask me, his Beethoven´s PC series is the worst recording of anything, by anyone, ever.  ;D ;D ;D

Back when GMG first got into that Schoonderwoerd series, I bought in whole-heartedly - it's a revelation! it's so new and fresh and exciting! - but after that excitement wore off, a year or two passed, and I listened again, my reaction was more like horror. Brutally ugly and (given the tiny size of the "orchestra") historically so inaccurate as to be useless.

Offline amw

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #832 on: December 14, 2015, 12:35:54 AM »
Beethoven's cadenzas are used in this set, per the track listings
Thanks for the heads up. Norrington's Beethoven Symphonies are definitely my cuppa (except the last quarter of the 9th to an extent) and at some point in the future, most likely when my Qobuz subscription expires/the site goes bankrupt, I'll probably invest in the full symphonies+concertos set. Listening to No. 1 now.

Hallelujah! someone's got their ears on straight!  :) ;D :laugh:
I've listened to the Schoonderwoerd set (or most of it anyway). My conclusions were that the sound quality was really good.

Offline Mandryka

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #833 on: December 14, 2015, 01:18:29 AM »
(given the tiny size of the "orchestra") historically so inaccurate .

You may just be wrong about that.

Have you read Stefan Weinzierl's book? I think he's a well regarded scholar. His was the scholarship which influenced Schoonderwoerd the most.  (I don't read German so I can't read the book.)

« Last Edit: December 14, 2015, 01:25:26 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline Florestan

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #834 on: December 14, 2015, 01:27:14 AM »
You may just be wrong about that.

Have you read Stefan Weinzierl's book?  (I don't read German so I can't)

Is there any reliable evidence (evidence, not speculation) for the concertos being ever performed one-voice-per-part?
"Beauty must appeal to the senses, must provide us with immediate enjoyment, must impress us or insinuate itself into us without any effort on our part."

 --- Claude Debussy

Offline Florestan

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #835 on: December 14, 2015, 01:57:07 AM »
I've listened to the Schoonderwoerd set (or most of it anyway). My conclusions were that the sound quality was really good.

The sound quality is good indeed, too good, actually, since it´s cleverly engineered to make the string quintet sound like a full orchestra --- and this in itself is bad enough, first because it is an unnatural sound and secondly, if Schoonwoerd really believes that the concertos were in fact octets or nonets, why the need to make them sound grander than that? The whole concept is so fuzzy and farfetched...
"Beauty must appeal to the senses, must provide us with immediate enjoyment, must impress us or insinuate itself into us without any effort on our part."

 --- Claude Debussy

Offline North Star

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #836 on: December 14, 2015, 05:05:35 AM »
The sound quality is good indeed, too good, actually, since it´s cleverly engineered to make the string quintet sound like a full orchestra --- and this in itself is bad enough, first because it is an unnatural sound and secondly, if Schoonwoerd really believes that the concertos were in fact octets or nonets, why the need to make them sound grander than that? The whole concept is so fuzzy and farfetched...
Cleverly engineered, or just recorded in an appropriately sized room with a period fortepiano that isn't too loud?
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Offline Florestan

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #837 on: December 14, 2015, 05:13:11 AM »
Cleverly engineered, or just recorded in an appropriately sized room with a period fortepiano that isn't too loud?

The "Emperor" was premiered at Gewandhaus. This fact alone should give Schoonderwoerd pause.  ;D
"Beauty must appeal to the senses, must provide us with immediate enjoyment, must impress us or insinuate itself into us without any effort on our part."

 --- Claude Debussy

Offline North Star

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #838 on: December 14, 2015, 05:55:09 AM »
The "Emperor" was premiered at Gewandhaus. This fact alone should give Schoonderwoerd pause.  ;D
Ah yes, I was thinking of No. 4, premiered at Prince Lobkowitz's home.
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Offline Florestan

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Re: Beethoven in Period Performances
« Reply #839 on: December 14, 2015, 06:08:32 AM »
Ah yes, I was thinking of No. 4, premiered at Prince Lobkowitz's home.

"Home" might be too misleading a term for what is really a palace featuring a dedicated concert hall.  :D

On that event the Coriolan Overture and the Fourth Symphony were also premiered. Would Schoonderwoerd make the case for them being played with the same tiny forces, I wonder? Or for Eroica, premiered in the same venue?

However one would consider the matter, Schoonderwoerd doesn´t have much of a case for his approach.
"Beauty must appeal to the senses, must provide us with immediate enjoyment, must impress us or insinuate itself into us without any effort on our part."

 --- Claude Debussy