Havergal Brian.

[John Whitmore]

To Luke and Johan - thanks for your replies to my lengthy post of yesterday (3 legged dog discussion!). You both make interesting points some of which I understand and accept, others with which I still disagree but that's healthy. Each of us has a different view on the music. Luke - you are spot on with the timbre of 3 drums vs 1 and I hadn't thought that through. A bit like a solo violin vs a full violin section. Nothing to do with volume as you say. Doh! Brian does seem to play the volume card quite a lot with his kitchen sink orchestrations and that's why I forgot about timbre and immediately thought of volume. Nielsen 5 to me is in the top half dozen works of the 20th century just to digress for a moment. Johan - yet again you are right when you say it's better to be a visionary with faults than a perfect craftsman with nothing to say. Brian has visionary moments and a bear's backside craft (Quote: Bob Simpson). That's good news I feel. Luke, City won 3-2 but were booed off the pitch. Very poor 2nd half and lucky to win. I'm doubly cursed. Brian and Leicester City. I must have upset someone in a previous life.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I must have upset someone in a previous life.

I'll consult a medium.

[John Whitmore]

I'll consult a medium.

That's no good. I will need extra large.

[Luke]

To Luke and Johan - thanks for your replies to my lengthy post of yesterday (3 legged dog discussion!). You both make interesting points some of which I understand and accept, others with which I still disagree but that's healthy. Each of us has a different view on the music. Luke - you are spot on with the timbre of 3 drums vs 1 and I hadn't thought that through. A bit like a solo violin vs a full violin section. Nothing to do with volume as you say. Doh! Brian does seem to play the volume card quite a lot with his kitchen sink orchestrations and that's why I forgot about timbre and immediately thought of volume. Nielsen 5 to me is in the top half dozen works of the 20th century just to digress for a moment. Johan - yet again you are right when you say it's better to be a visionary with faults than a perfect craftsman with nothing to say. Brian has visionary moments and a bear's backside craft (Quote: Bob Simpson). That's good news I feel. Luke, City won 3-2 but were booed off the pitch. Very poor 2nd half and lucky to win. I'm doubly cursed. Brian and Leicester City. I must have upset someone in a previous life.

Well then, you and me both! Exactly the same afflictions. Do you think Johan's extra-large medium will give us a BOGOF?

[Luke]

Apropos of our orchestration discussion, I was reading through some of Ordeal by Music last night and was struck (in the context) by this early review of Brian (the English Suite no 1):

From the point of view of orchestral tone colour it was a triumph. His use of the orchestra is especially good, and throughout the work the varying colours of the instrumental palette were adroitly chosen and harmonised. That is an achievement in technical skill which few writers can attain; we hear so much mist and mud in modern orchestration. Neither was the scoring of this work reminiscent, it had a freshness and breezy vigour which can be broadly described as English...

Mr Henry J Wood took a tremendous interest in its interpretation, and it was very evident that the orcehstra enjoyed their labours; for, after all, it is something to an orchestral player that his work counts, that the characteristics of his instrument are not overlloked, or 'crowded out', and in this particular work the orchestral tints gleamed - that is the word, - and the various groups of tone, strings, wood, brass, precussion, were each excellently written for.

A number of unoriginal thoughts come to mind as I read that.

- that orchestration is something hard or impossible to assess, if taken at its simplest (how does it sound) two listeners can hear the same composer's writing in such - diametrically opposite - different terms.

- but that I'm not sure if this is really what is happening in our discussion; John you have spoken about the orchestration sometimes sounding poor to your ears, but also about the issues of awkwardness which some players have with it. The latter is certainly part of orchestration but only a part, and not one which the listener is primarily aware of. When you are assessing HB's orchestration, John, do you do so on the basis of sound alone, or do those
player's comments come into it? I ask only out of interest, as neither way is 'wrong,' of course.

- conected to that; interesting to see a specific comment about the players enjoying the music in that early review, and for precisely the reasons John has said that some don't enjoy it now. Were players back then more willing, less grudging, more trusting and less worldly-wise....? I don't think so, but....! Or perhaps (more likely) it is that these earlier Brian pieces are formally simpler, that their technical challenges, whilst sometimes hard (from the scores I have seen) are generally of the usual Strauss-ish sort. In the later works it is not so much the technique that changes as the language, and I can imagine that this in itself can frustrate a player. 'This is really hard, and why is it here at all? It all sounds so odd...'

- so, early Brian seems to me (and to this writer) often to be very successful, orchestrally speaking (listening to The Tigers last night only reconfirmed this for me; Doctor Merryheart has always espeically impressed me in this respect too). Everything is clear, imaginative, sparkling, strong, subtle when need be. I think in these early works Brian proves once and for all that he knows what he is doing. Therefore...

- the obvious follow-on to this is: if in Brian's much more complex and fragmented later music the orchestration can sound congested (I don't hear it as such, myself), I would say this can be explained in a number of ways a) perhaps this is exactly the sound he wants, and as he's proved his capabilities in the earlier music, this ought to be taken seriously; b) perhaps, this music being technically more demanding and rather out-of-the-ordinary in its interpretative demands too, many orchestras struggle with it and don't do it justice (I'd say my point yesterday - about the Brian symphonies which strike me as best orchestrated also being the ones which I've heard in recordings by the better orchestras - bears this out); c) perhaps Brian struggled in clothing his new musical ideas in appropriate instrumental dress, as he was at home in an orchestral style suited to less adventurous music than that t which he had arrived. I don't think the last one is true; it doesn't ring true to my own experiences of the music, but as it is one of the possibilities, I mention it here.

[John Whitmore]

Well then, you and me both! Exactly the same afflictions. Do you think Johan's extra-large medium will give us a BOGOF?

A BOGOF is certainly in order. A mate of mine went to a fortune teller once and was so irritated by her constant grin that he thumped her in the face. He was arrested for striking a happy medium. I'll get my coat..............

[Hattoff]

John,
Our messages crossed , I will send the LPs as soon as I get suitable packaging.

[John Whitmore]

Apropos of our orchestration discussion, I was reading through some of Ordeal by Music last night and was struck (in the context) by this early review of Brian (the English Suite no 1):

John you have spoken about the orchestration sometimes sounding poor to your ears, but also about the issues of awkwardness which some players have with it. The latter is certainly part of orchestration but only a part, and not one which the listener is primarily aware of. When you are assessing HB's orchestration, John, do you do so on the basis of sound alone, or do those
player's comments come into it? I ask only out of interest, as neither way is 'wrong,' of course.

Primarily I use my ears to make (subjective?) judgements on all the music I listen to. When possible I read scores. My ears just tell me that Brian doesn't quite sound right - whatever "right" actually means. In talking about music generally with my friends, some of whom are in the profession, the general concensus is that Brian is thickly scored and awkwardly written. The horn player in the pre Proms talk made the same point I think. Basically I make an assessment on the actual sound of the music but my gut feelings about the composer are backed up and reinforced by comments made by people who's views I generally trust. Of course, I may be wrong and so might they. And so it goes on......

[John Whitmore]

John,
Our messages crossed , I will send the LPs as soon as I get suitable packaging.

You got my address then? What labels are these LPs actually on - I'm intrigued. Lets hope we can come up with something worth sharing. I'm optimistic.

[John Whitmore]

I thought you all might enjoy seeing these 8 press cuttings from the 1970s mostly from the Leicester Mercury. All HB related of course:

http://www.mediafire.com/?5dhod35t7b4yb

[karlhenning]

Apropos of our orchestration discussion, I was reading through some of Ordeal by Music last night and was struck (in the context) by this early review of Brian (the English Suite no 1):

A number of unoriginal thoughts come to mind as I read that.

- that orchestration is something hard or impossible to assess, if taken at its simplest (how does it sound) two listeners can hear the same composer's writing in such - diametrically opposite - different terms.

- but that I'm not sure if this is really what is happening in our discussion; John you have spoken about the orchestration sometimes sounding poor to your ears, but also about the issues of awkwardness which some players have with it. The latter is certainly part of orchestration but only a part, and not one which the listener is primarily aware of. When you are assessing HB's orchestration, John, do you do so on the basis of sound alone, or do those
player's comments come into it? I ask only out of interest, as neither way is 'wrong,' of course.

- conected to that; interesting to see a specific comment about the players enjoying the music in that early review, and for precisely the reasons John has said that some don't enjoy it now. Were players back then more willing, less grudging, more trusting and less worldly-wise....? I don't think so, but....! Or perhaps (more likely) it is that these earlier Brian pieces are formally simpler, that their technical challenges, whilst sometimes hard (from the scores I have seen) are generally of the usual Strauss-ish sort. In the later works it is not so much the technique that changes as the language, and I can imagine that this in itself can frustrate a player. 'This is really hard, and why is it here at all? It all sounds so odd...'

- so, early Brian seems to me (and to this writer) often to be very successful, orchestrally speaking (listening to The Tigers last night only reconfirmed this for me; Doctor Merryheart has always espeically impressed me in this respect too). Everything is clear, imaginative, sparkling, strong, subtle when need be. I think in these early works Brian proves once and for all that he knows what he is doing. Therefore...

- the obvious follow-on to this is: if in Brian's much more complex and fragmented later music the orchestration can sound congested (I don't hear it as such, myself), I would say this can be explained in a number of ways a) perhaps this is exactly the sound he wants, and as he's proved his capabilities in the earlier music, this ought to be taken seriously; b) perhaps, this music being technically more demanding and rather out-of-the-ordinary in its interpretative demands too, many orchestras struggle with it and don't do it justice (I'd say my point yesterday - about the Brian symphonies which strike me as best orchestrated also being the ones which I've heard in recordings by the better orchestras - bears this out); c) perhaps Brian struggled in clothing his new musical ideas in appropriate instrumental dress, as he was at home in an orchestral style suited to less adventurous music than that t which he had arrived. I don't think the last one is true; it doesn't ring true to my own experiences of the music, but as it is one of the possibilities, I mention it here.

Always a pleasure to read your musical analyses/ruminations, Luke!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

That's no good. I will need extra large.

I was busy today, but this made me laugh when I read it hours and hours ago. Also thanks for the links to newspaper cuttings. I'll download them when I'm back home again (just leaving Amsterdam Central Station).

Luke's post was excellent and asked all the right questions and tried to answer them. Brian knew what he was about, so why use the orchestra the way he did? I remember a very good article in the HBS Newsletter about Brian's word-setting, where Brian appeared to avoid any easy or 'natural' solutions. It seems Brian hated the tried-and-tested in his mature period and - whether intentionally or spontaneously - sometimes went against the grain, of instruments, the human voice... In his songs he studiously avoids anything that could reek of easy emotion.

I think there is a strong puritanism at work in Brian, which ties in with that 'withholding' or holding-back our own Brian remarked upon earlier in this thread.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Just read the cuttings. Historic material! I wonder if the HBS has them... I had to smile at how the Penguin Stereo Record Guide characterises the grim, taut and warlike 22nd Symphony: The Symphonia Brevis, two brief but ambitious movements plus epilogue, represents Havergal Brian's later work at its most enjoyable, undisciplined in its way, but with an unmistakable flavour.

[Brian]

If the 'Gothic' CD is coming out next month, I had better start writing my MusicWeb review now...

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

If the 'Gothic' CD is coming out next month, I had better start writing my MusicWeb review now...

Next month? I don't know how quick Hyperion will be in 'rushing out' The Gothic. When I checked their website last week, I didn't see HB among the forthcoming releases. Or did I miss something?

[Brian]

Next month? I don't know how quick Hyperion will be in 'rushing out' The Gothic. When I checked their website last week, I didn't see HB among the forthcoming releases. Or did I miss something?

I thought somebody used the phrase "next month" a few pages ago in this thread based on "inside information." Perhaps they mean October?
EDIT: October's listed online too... perhaps it's a 'surprise' or a false rumor...

[Philip Legge]

I expect the next month refers to the program note writer's deadline (the source of the rumour gives the clue to the identity of the writer!), and the intention of the CD company would be to capitalise on sales before Christmas. So while the September and October releases already appear finalised, the Gothic may appear in the upcoming lists rather late in the piece, once cover art and other details are finalised.

[Hattoff]

John,
The Brian "Legend" LP is on the Auracle label, it was generally available for sometime but I don't think that it ever came out on CD, it also has works by Rawsthorne, Walton and Arnold.

As you're up for it! I have a rarish Opera Viva double LP containing substantial excerpts from Holst's opera "Sita", Naylor's "the Angelus", Ethel Smyth's "the Boatswain's Mate", Delius' "Irmelin", Boughton's "the Immortal Hour", Stanford's "Much Ado About Nothing", along with smaller pieces by Arthur Goring Thomas, Sir Frederick Hymen Cowen, Hamish MacCunn, Baron Frederick d'Erlanger and Frederick Corder.

[John Whitmore]

Just read the cuttings. Historic material! I wonder if the HBS has them... I had to smile at how the Penguin Stereo Record Guide characterises the grim, taut and warlike 22nd Symphony: The Symphonia Brevis, two brief but ambitious movements plus epilogue, represents Havergal Brian's later work at its most enjoyable, undisciplined in its way, but with an unmistakable flavour.

If the HBS doesn't have them please feel free to send them the links. Glad you liked them. Any luck on the R&R 10/21 JSTOR review yet or am I doomed to the attic?

[John Whitmore]

John,
The Brian "Legend" LP is on the Auracle label, it was generally available for sometime but I don't think that it ever came out on CD, it also has works by Rawsthorne, Walton and Arnold.

As you're up for it! I have a rarish Opera Viva double LP containing substantial excerpts from Holst's opera "Sita", Naylor's "the Angelus", Ethel Smyth's "the Boatswain's Mate", Delius' "Irmelin", Boughton's "the Immortal Hour", Stanford's "Much Ado About Nothing", along with smaller pieces by Arthur Goring Thomas, Sir Frederick Hymen Cowen, Hamish MacCunn, Baron Frederick d'Erlanger and Frederick Corder.

Steve, just send me the lot and I will make the transfers. Delighted that the HB suite is in proper stereo. Probably a week's work but I'm up for it. I wonder how much interest this will generate on here?