Havergal Brian.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Exactly. Listening to 14 now 

Sarge

Report back, Sarge!

I'm off to feed two rabbits...

[Maestro267]

For curiosity's sake, what are the timings for the Dutton 2 & 14?

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

For curiosity's sake, what are the timings for the Dutton 2 & 14?

I'm not at home. Will check later. Suffice it to say, Brabbins is faster in both works, which is to their advantage.

[Sergeant Rock]

For curiosity's sake, what are the timings for the Dutton 2 & 14?

2: 10:48  13:55  5:43  16:17

14: 21:33

Sarge

[Maestro267]

Thanks. Hmm. No. 2 taken substantially quicker than Rowe.

[cilgwyn]

You can view the progress of the fund to record Faust,at the HB Society website,via a graph. It currently stands at  approximately 80% of the total required. I've just been looking at how much it has progressed since May 1st!!
Wow!!!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I saw it, too. I'm glad we do so well without me (not very rich, me).

[calyptorhynchus]

Well, the new 2 & 14 arrived yesterday and I listened to it last night.

Definitely a must-have for Brianites, no.2 is amazing in this recording. Mackerras and Rowe both made this symphony seem ponderous and lumbering (except the scherzo, of course), but Brabbins makes it weighty, but light-footed, so it seems to go by much more quickly than the other two accounts (even though it's only a few minutes difference). The whole orchestration seems lighter, the organ is more prominent in the (few) passages it appears in and the scherzo is much more assured with the full 16 horns. Definitely the best performance so far. Very interested to read John Pickard's sleeve-notes, noting that the symphony ends in E major, despite MacDonald's assertion of a bare-fifth ending. I listened and I think both are right, the major third is there, but is seems to be replaced by the bare-fifth-ending, guess it's a matter of judgement. But generally John Pickard seems to have slipped easily into Malcolm MacDonald's shoes as erudite Brian commentator, wonder if he will write three volumes on the symphonies 

No.14 sounds much better than the Downes recording, again with a more prominent organ (towards the end), but 14 remains my least favourite Brian symphony.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Your experience of the Second is identical to mine. It's as if Mackerras and Rowe weren't 'fluent' enough in speaking Brian's language here; Brabbins has mastered it completely, so the music flows with absolute naturalness. A pity you don't warm to No. 14 even in better sound... But those things happen. I cannot see John Picard writing a study about Brian, but he certainly understands his music from the inside. That's not so surprising, since he has lived with it since the late 70s, just like me. John studied composition with Louis Andriessen in The Hague somewhere around 1985. He and I didn't meet, but a few letters passed back and forth. I only met him in 1987 (? must check) in Birmingham at an amateur performance of the Third Symphony where he helped out in the percussion department...

[cilgwyn]

An interesting post about the new Dutton cd on the "Re Sullivan and Brian" thread,by Dundonnell,at the Art Music Forum;particular his comments about No 14. I wonder if anyone here agrees with him? I don't,since No 14 is now a favourite;and I don't expect Sarge will......or possibly,calyptorhyncus?
I'm listening to Khatchaturian,at the moment!!

[Sergeant Rock]

An interesting post about the new Dutton cd on the "Re Sullivan and Brian" thread,by Dundonnell,at the Art Music Forum;particular his comments about No 14. I wonder if anyone here agrees with him? I don't,since No 14 is now a favourite;and I don't expect Sarge will......or possibly,calyptorhyncus?
I'm listening to Khatchaturian,at the moment!!

If it's anything negative about 14, no, I'll not likely agree. Can you give us the link to the post?

Sarge

[cilgwyn]

Let's hope this get's you there:

http://artmusic.smfforfree.com/index.php?topic=5428.msg27062#msg27062

Scroll down!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Colin happens to have emailed me his contribution. To have it here too:

I am just too busy at the moment to go to the GMG and read what must be there about the new Dutton release of the Brian 2nd and 14th. This is what I have written on the ARt Music Forum: "I am slightly surprised that there has not been more comment on the new Dutton cd of the Brian Symphonies Nos. 2 and 14.

My own response having listened to the two symphonies a number of times is that the No.2 is indeed a magnificent work, given a superlative performance with the full orchestral complement as Brian had hoped for. The last two movements in particular are absolutely wonderful, grand, imposing, powerful, masterful, in awe-inspiring sound quality.

Paradoxically (and sadly) however-and I know full well that others will disagree-I am now more convinced that Malcolm MacDonald was correct about No.14 after all. I used to resist his opinion of the work and argued about it with him but now I am inclined to see exactly what he meant. The work has some impressive moments but Brian does not take them anywhere. The work does not quite gel. John Pickard, who had a huge job editing the score, feels that Brian was just "not firing on all cylinders" when he wrote the work. Re-reading what Malcolm wrote all these years ago and listening to the piece I think he was right. It is not Brian at his best. And as I listen to it I get the distinct impression that Brabbins and the RSNO are struggling with the work's coherence (or lack of it)."

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

My response (for what it's worth, and I have changed my mind...):

I think I agree with the verdict about 14. Both 13 and 14 are problematic. It's always a bit difficult to know what any Brian symphony is 'about'. With the strong ones, though, you get a sense of coherence and progression. 13 and 14 are more episodic and the whole is not greater than the sum of its parts. As for 2, I have come to appreciate it much more. It's a tense and catastrophic work, ideally suited to the world today, alas.

[Sergeant Rock]

Let's hope this get's you there:

http://artmusic.smfforfree.com/index.php?topic=5428.msg27062#msg27062

Scroll down!

Thanks...the link got me there. Unfortunately my bazooka doesn't have enough range to hit Dundonnel from here. If only I had a 155mm howitzer 

Sarge

[calyptorhynchus]

Last year I was consoling a Rugby League fan here in Australia. His team not only hadn't made the finals, but it had ended up bottom of the table. I said, very unhelpfully as it turned out, "well, one team has to come out on the bottom".

I think that Brian's output is so extraordinary and so large that it's a wonder that so many of his symphonies are of such high quality and hardly surprising that there are one or two that aren't so good.

[cilgwyn]

Nice to see Sarge sticking to his gun (s) on this one!! I just like the soundworld that Brian evokes in No's 13 & 14. It just happens to appeal to me. Maybe it isn't one of his most cogently argued efforts,but I just like the sounds and atmosphere it evokes in my mind,and it's relatively short span is just jam packed with interesting ideas. Some of the later ones get a bit strenuous. Albeit,some martial moments aside,No's 13 & 14,feel a bit more like some of the earlier ones,like No's 3 & 7 in terms of their general atmosphere,just very compressed. I find them a very satisfying follow up.  In fact,I think I would have liked to have seen No 14 coupled with No 2,even if it had been recorded before.

[cilgwyn]

What am I saying? The Seventh has it's share of 'martial' moments. It even opens with a fanfare!! (This migraine isn't helping. And no,it wasn't Khatchaturian!! ) No's 2,3,7,13 & 14 do seem to 'go' nicely together to my ears. Conversely,it was a nice idea of Naxos to couple No's 4 & 12.

[cilgwyn]

Last year I was consoling a Rugby League fan here in Australia. His team not only hadn't made the finals, but it had ended up bottom of the table. I said, very unhelpfully as it turned out, "well, one team has to come out on the bottom".

I think that Brian's output is so extraordinary and so large that it's a wonder that so many of his symphonies are of such high quality and hardly surprising that there are one or two that aren't so good.

(At risk of taking to myself!! ) And all the more remarkable imho,calyptorhyncus,that even his less successful efforts are interesting to listen to! I love Martinu at his best,but even I have to admit that he composed allot of music that just comes over as note spinning. I won't name any pieces,because there is always bound to be someone who will be thinking,"that's one I like";but I can think of a few I've given up on! But,that's not to disparage his achievement. Composing is hard work and that's what they live for and enjoy doing. Furthermore,just because a composer produces one or two,or more,less inspired efforts doesn't diminish his overall achievement. Hovhaness is another example. I wouldn't care to compare him with a figure like Martinu,who is a composer of national significance in his own country;but,like Martinu,there is a lot of chaff amongst the wheat. Even more so in his case. I should know,I've listened through piles of Hovhaness cds in my time,and most of them ended up getting taken off to the local charity shop! But at his best I think he is a tremendously original and hugely rewarding composer. Maybe,he did compose too much,from our vantage point,but that's what he did,and he obviously enjoyed what he was doing. Anyway,that's how he worked;and if he hadn't produced some instances of what we might call note spinning.he wouldn't have produced the really good stuff that music lovers like myself enjoy and admire.
It's interesting that a cd like the present one from Dutton,with such superb recording sound quality and a seemingly intuitive undertanding of the music they are playing can actually have a negative impact on the person who is listening. Instead of actually enhancing their opinion of a work,it actually confirms their underlying doubts. But then maybe that's what a really good performance of a piece of music is all about? And opinion isn't always going to come down in favour of the composer.
Of course,if,like me and Sarge;the piece of music in question is a favourite piece of music,it doesn't really matter what anyone thinks. If you enoy it,you enjoy it;and at least from your (our!) point of view it's a very satisfying piece of music,otherwise you wouldn't keep wanting to play it!! In that regard I think Havergal Brian's Fourteenth Symphony is a very rewarding and successful example of his music and I will go on playing it.........along with the thirteenth..............and probably allot more than the Gothic (it's shorter! ) and some other supposedly less flawed efforts!!!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

For the record - both the Thirteenth and Fourteenth contain music I wouldn't miss for the world.