Havergal Brian.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Yes, I've just been on the site but I think that I might be away then. Probably HBS nutters have already purchased all the tickets anyway. 

Cheeky!

[vandermolen]

Cheeky!

[relm1]

What is the key to appreciating HB's lack of musical structure? 

It seems his early music followed strict structure and was less distinctive but more compelling to me.  The big turning point being the Gothic Symphony which still had cohesive sense of structure but his later works started to feel more like stream of consciousness.  Almost as if "this morning, I had this idea but discarded it because afternoon this other thing came into my mind".  Meanwhile I find the Gothic and No. 4 to be balanced symphony universes.  If you listened to 30 seconds of Gothic, you know what sound world that work belongs to.  But with No. 14, you can't tell where that work belongs to. 

The background to this question - I consider myself a hardcore Brian fan having owned recordings of his since the 1980's where thoughts of ever hearing the Gothic were a distant hope.  I've traveled around the world to hear the Gothic concert in Brisbane and own perhaps 20 CD's of his music.  I met Malcolm MacDonald (in Brisbane where I sat next to him during the rehearsals as we discussed Simpson and Brian, etc.).   

I recently received and eagerly listened to the new Dutton Brian recording of No. 2 and 14.  I can't imagine a better recording and interpretation of this music.   But I still find No. 2 to be a bore.  I listened to it three times.  Am I an idiot who doesn't recognize Brian's genius or is he really an extremely inventive but inconsistent composer who sometimes rises to brilliance but often fails on the execution of those ideas?

[hbswebmaster]

I understand what you mean, although maybe with Brian, it's 'a journey', as they say. Like you, I've listened to HB for a long time and what I get from his symphonic cycle is a process of trying out different forms, almost to the exclusion of conventional development. So what I hear in no. 14 is a compressed, conjoined four-movement structure. Not a conventional melodist, HB drives in a different direction, so much so that I haven't really looked for form as such from him for quite a while! I didn't really like no. 2 until the new Dutton, and it's changed my view. It's not uniform, but it certainly gets better as it progresses, in my ears.

No, you're not an idiot in not seeing HB as a genius - because he's not, all the time. Not all composers (even the greatest) can be inspired all the time, and all composers have moments of genius and pedestrianism to varying degrees. Sometimes form isn't everything when inspiration has you by the throat (e.g. Tchaikovsky in his fourth symphony where he is almost audibly la-la-la-ing during the first movement development, so keen is he to get on with the drama), and that genius takes either a long time to arrive (e.g. Mahler, who in my eyes didn't find his true voice until quite late on - symphony 8 onwards - and whose inspiration up to around 1900 was, shall we say kindly, borrowed from various sources, some in homage (Brahms) and some because he didn't think that anyone would realise (Rott - don't believe me? Listen to the Adagietto from Mahler 5 and then the slow movement of Rott's string quartet)). Genius sometimes doesn't even enter into the equation, e.g. Beethoven in 'Rage over a lost penny'. As I always tell my daughter when she mocks 'Have-a-go' Brian, there is no such thing as empirically bad music, only music that you don't like. Form is of course important in music, but if music triggers something in you then it is doing what the composer intended, regardless of whether it is in a recognisable form or not. Genius is in the ear of the beholder (does that make sense?) and there are plenty of those moments in HB. 

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

My few cents - Brian has ideas galore, and the way he presents and treats them is often unconventional. His musical processes are unpredictable, but there certainly is method to his 'madness'. I have found that repeated hearings plus a healthy dose of Malcolm MacDonald do the trick. That's why I haven't had any persistent problem with any of his works ever since discovering him in 1977. As for his 'genius', I think he has it; but Brian isn't disciplined, neither is he analytical. He isn't the kind of artist who consciously progresses from one work to another, audibly learning along the way. Brian is impulsive,  spontaneous and eruptive. That's his strength and his weakness. That said, I love his music to bits.

[relm1]

Thanks hbswebmaster and Johan.  Very helpful and articulate posts.  I am someone who cares about structure quite a bit so a good idea with poor structure frustrates me.  It does not need to be strict structure - Sibelius deviated frequently but those works always had a road map that was very tightly controlled and showed how an idea logically evolves to the next.  You can't take the ideas out of order because they fall apart.  You don't really get this with HB.

[John Whitmore]

I've not been on here for ages. I received a copy of the Dutton recording of symphonies 2 and 14 a couple of weeks ago and have submitted a review to Music Web. Once it's live I'll copy the link. A bit of a mixed bag I thought...

[cilgwyn]

Welcome back,John! I was wondering where you'd gone!! I look forward to your review. A very timely return to this thread in lieu of some recent posts.
And to lovers of Das Siegeslied. Just when you thought it was safe!!
Incidentally,just in case there is anyone who doesn't know about this already;I just had a look at Musicweb,and I see there is now a Havergal Brian index there,with links to all the reviews.

[John Whitmore]

I got sidetracked by a certain football team dominaring my life during an epic season.

[Albion]

A useful tabulation of musicweb reviews:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/comp-idx/misc-revidx/brian_sys_revidx.htm

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Thanks,  John (Albion).

Thanks,  John (Whitmore) for the imminent review!

[John Whitmore]

I only wrote what I heard. Be nice......
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2016/Sep/Brian_sys_CDLX7330.htm

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

We'll see...

 

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Excellent review, John. Fair and balanced. And humorous, too ( Richard III).

[vandermolen]

Yes, it's a very good review which I very much agree with.

[Sergeant Rock]

I only wrote what I heard. Be nice......

"I end up accepting the music for what it is, warts and all. Maybe it's the warts that make it so characteristically Brian!"

Yes!...you finally get it! 

Sarge

[cilgwyn]

I'll remember that the next time I get a wart! I'll nurture it,instead of rubbing a snail or a piece of meat on it,and burying it in the ground!
I must admit I was expecting the worst. I thought the Second was one you didn't like,John?! Now it seems we've got a convert. You like No's 10,3 & now you like No 2! Just wait. You'll be raving about 'Das Siegeslied' when they release that! Seriously,I think you've got quite a talent as a critic there. I really do think that if I didn't already know the music,I'd want to buy the cd after reading your review.

[Sergeant Rock]

I'll remember that the next time I get a wart!

I like the giant wart that is the 14th    I fear, though, that it will be quite some time before John loves it as we do.

Sarge

[John Whitmore]

Much of HB's output is too wart ridden to listen to for my taste. The odd wart or two is fine but No.14 has 'em all over the place. 3 and 10 are not too disfigured (small moles and the odd pimple or two) but 14 is a shocker. Maybe it should be known as The Wart symphony?

[cilgwyn]

  Sarge will be playing that now!!