Havergal Brian.

Started by Harry, June 09, 2007, 04:36:53 AM

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J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: Dundonnell on June 05, 2009, 03:48:47 PM
I am sure however that Johan will wish to reply and will do a much better job than I :)

Let me say this (I don't have much time):

I agree - there is no 'tailing off'. I do think the first 17 symphonies are all of them extremely varied, a variedness which decreases after that. But the man was already 85! So there are among the final fifteen a few symphonies I could, perhaps, live without (21, 26, even 29, which MM regards as a great piece, but which is IMO slightly formulaic). But even among those symphonies there are moments I cherish. The Cello Concerto inhabits the soundworld of the 'greyer' later symphonies, whereas the much earlier Violin Concerto is Brian in glorious technicolor.
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Lilas Pastia

Questions:

- Johan, are the symphonies 6 and 16 from your files the same as the Lyrita disc? If so, where is the Cooke symphony from that disc ? ;D
- Jeffrey, you mention "one of the English suites" . How many are there, and which one is that in Johan's treasure chest Brian files ?

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on June 06, 2009, 06:10:54 AM
Questions:

- Johan, are the symphonies 6 and 16 from your files the same as the Lyrita disc? If so, where is the Cooke symphony from that disc ? ;D
- Jeffrey, you mention "one of the English suites" . How many are there, and which one is that in Johan's treasure chest Brian files ?

-Yes. You want me to upload the Cooke?

-There are 5 English Suites. Jeffrey is referring to a recording of the Fifth, which resides in my Brian files treasure chest...
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Lilas Pastia

Oh, I'd love to have the Cooke, Johan. ARG gives it a great review (along with the Brian symphonies).

And of course I had noticed about the English Suite in your vault (it's not too hermetic ;D).

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on June 07, 2009, 04:20:23 AM
Oh, I'd love to have the Cooke, Johan. ARG gives it a great review (along with the Brian symphonies).

And of course I had noticed about the English Suite in your vault (it's not too hermetic ;D).

Indeed!  ;)

(Upload later today.)
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Dundonnell

Quote from: Jezetha on June 06, 2009, 08:47:57 AM
-Yes. You want me to upload the Cooke?

-There are 5 English Suites. Jeffrey is referring to a recording of the Fifth, which resides in my Brian files treasure chest...

Although, as Johan says, there were 5 English Suites one of them (No. 2 'Night Portraits' from 1914) is lost. The First and Fifth have been recorded: No. 1 by the City of Hull Youth Symphony Orchestra(Cameo Classics LP/Campion CD) and No.5 'Rustic Scenes' by the Leicestershire Schools Symphony Orchestra(CBS LP).

Lilas Pastia

Thanks, Colin!

It's so gratifying to rub shoulders with scholars and gentlemen like you guys (the Brian Brigade !!).  :-*

Dundonnell

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on June 07, 2009, 03:18:02 PM
Thanks, Colin!

It's so gratifying to rub shoulders with scholars and gentlemen like you guys (the Brian Brigade !!).  :-*

I blush at your most generous comment :-[

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on June 07, 2009, 03:18:02 PM
It's so gratifying to rub shoulders with scholars and gentlemen like you guys (the Brian Brigade !!).  :-*

"Look at my chest", the courteous Brianic gentleman said, "it's slightly bigger, due to one Cooke."
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

springrite

Quote from: Jezetha on June 07, 2009, 10:52:04 PM
"Look at my chest", the courteous Brianic gentleman said, "it's slightly bigger, due to one Cooke."

Never trust a cooke who is too lean.
Do what I must do, and let what must happen happen.

Lilas Pastia

A lean cook knows self-control ;). I'll check out if this 'cooke' is lean or has enough flesh on its bones!

Johan, you're my hero  :-*

Dundonnell

Cross-referencing with another thread.......I wonder how many are aware that the American composer and conductor Bernard Herrmann conducted Brian's Comedy Overture "Doctor Merryheart" in the USA round about 1940 with the CBS Symphony Orchestra.

In addition to being a huge supporter of the exiled British composer Richard Arnell Herrmann was a passionate advocate of a lot of other British composers.

Lethevich

#332
The 7th symphony really packs a punch, doesn't it? The final half of the first movement is incredible. It makes me wonder at what point Brian became a "tough cookie" (or even more of one)? My previous favourite symphony - No.27 - is much more inaccessable than No.7, which is more conventionally dramatic/melodic than I had recalled. I presume this is why his 1, 6-9* tend to be the most acclaimed/admired - at some point after 9 he went into wilder terrain, but when? 0:)

I must restate my admiration (after a 'Now Listening' thread post) for this stupendous CD, a real backbone of the Brian discography:



Edit: Although I do wonder whether this is based on the greater availability of recordings of these workers...
Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: Lethe on June 20, 2009, 12:20:42 AM
It makes me wonder at what point Brian became a "tough cookie" (or even more of one)? (...) I presume this is why his 1, 6-9 tend to be the most acclaimed/admired - at some point after 9 he went into wilder terrain, but when? 0:)

Quote from: Jezetha on June 05, 2009, 11:52:23 PM
I agree - there is no 'tailing off'. I do think the first 17 symphonies are all of them extremely varied, a variedness which decreases after that. But the man was already 85! So there are among the final fifteen a few symphonies I could, perhaps, live without (21, 26, even 29, which MM regards as a great piece, but which is IMO slightly formulaic). But even among those symphonies there are moments I cherish. The Cello Concerto inhabits the soundworld of the 'greyer' later symphonies, whereas the much earlier Violin Concerto is Brian in glorious technicolor.

So, as Malcolm Macdonald was the first to notice, from No. 18 onwards Brian turns 'classical' and his soundworld becomes drier. But listen to Symphony No. 31 on your 'stupendous' CD, Sarah, and see of what he was capable in his 92th (!) year. The conclusion of that work is very very powerful. No. 31 and No. 27 are quite similar in style. You should like it.
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Lethevich

I'll admit that 31 didn't make quite such an impression as the 7th on this listen, but I was kind of expecting that - it does share the same "tough" qualities of 27 - they have the same basis as the earlier symphonies, but everything has been stripped back. This includes memorable themes, which become almost fragmentory, like sunbursts through clouds before swiftly moving on...
Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: Lethe on June 20, 2009, 01:05:14 AM
I'll admit that 31 didn't make quite such an impression as the 7th on this listen, but I was kind of expecting that - it does share the same "tough" qualities of 27 - they have the same basis as the earlier symphonies, but everything has been stripped back. This includes memorable themes, which become almost fragmentory, like sunbursts through clouds before swiftly moving on...

Yes. The man was extremely old. That kind of ellipsis seems to go with a 'late style'. There is a fitful recollection of fullness, of life, being played inside an aged head. I wonder though, as I write this, how Elliott Carter compares...
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Lethevich

#336
This makes me recall something from way back: when I was initially getting into Brian and Googling as much information as I could find online, I encountered a post on another forum (a video game one, of all places) where someone was talking about the late symphonies. They had a similar opinion, but found this restless quality to the music as representing anger - I am not sure that I can detect any overriding mood from them, they seem almost deliberately looking towards regions more abstract than that. It's far more innovative than many composers who have been labeled "modernist"...

Edit: I just ran into this pic of him on Google image search! I hadn't seen it before:

Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.

J.Z. Herrenberg

#337
Quote from: Lethe on June 20, 2009, 10:33:38 AM
This makes me recall something from way back: when I was initially getting into Brian and Googling as much information as I could find online, I encountered a post on another forum (a video game one, of all places) where someone was talking about the late symphonies. They had a similar opinion, but found this restless quality to the music as representing anger - I am not sure that I can detect any overriding mood from them, they seem almost deliberately looking towards regions more abstract than that. It's far more innovative than many composers who have been labeled "modernist"...

Hm, anger, eh? I recall Malcolm Macdonald writing about the codas of several of the later symphonies, that Brian seems to 'finish the work in a spasm of anger'. Aggression is certainly part of Brian's style, there is a lot of testosterone there. If, MM asserts, the Eighth is the 'quintessential' Brian symphony, then tenderness (often expressed in violin solos) and violence (explosions of brass and percussion) are Brian's extremes. So - anger is there, certainly.

P.S. I know the picture. It's Brian around 1910 (I think).
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Renfield

In case this has not been noted elsewhere, Testament are soon 'officially' releasing (among other things) the 1966 Boult 'Gothic'!

[Bottom of this page.]

Lethevich

Good on them, it's an amazing performance and its sales will more than recoup the costs for licencing.

Seems that they really are scraping the barrel with Giulini's Bruckner, though. How many live performances that don't in any way compare to the DG recordings do we need? :P
Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.