Havergal Brian.

Started by Harry, June 09, 2007, 04:36:53 AM

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J.Z. Herrenberg

Here is John Whitmore, who took part in that historic LSSO recording of the Tenth, playing the violin:


Now for the verdict on the 10th. The LSSO acoustic was very dry and unforgiving. A bit more glow would have masked some of the intonation issues. The new one is a bit too washy for my tastes and the horns and brass are often lost in the texture. Somewhere between the two would be perfect. The playing on the new disc is, of course, much superior to a load of kids who weren't even music students but interpretively speaking I prefer sections of the LSSO as follows:

1) The pppp section before the storm is riveting by the LSSO. Brabbins doesn't achieve the stillness required. There's no feeling that something catastrophic is about to come.

2) The storm section is hair raising in the LSSO and quite sedate in the new recording. Those piercing trumpets and trombones are swamped in the acoustic and have no bite. It's all a bit tame.

3) Just before the return of the violin solo there is the famous chord that "stares sphinx like" according to Bob Simpson. The LSSO get this just right and it's a hair raising moment. With Brabbins it's just a passing chord with no feeling of doom or isolation about it.


4) The fact that the LSSO are stretched gives the music a sort of primitive feeling and there is the sense of sitting on the edge of a precipice all the time. This doesn't come through in the new version because the playing is so good that the sense of danger is missing.Overall, a lovely disc and I like it a lot. I still think that there is a place for both versions which is great testament to the LSSO. 
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: cilgwyn on March 16, 2011, 07:14:59 AM
(And this is someone who actually prefers Bryden Thomson Bax cycle to Vernon Handley's!!!)

So, perhaps, do I!
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

cilgwyn

'John Whitmore' quite obviously knows allot more about it than I do & it's rather reassuring from a listeners point of view that he has almost exactly the same reservations about certain aspects of the new recording as I do. Although 'reservations' probably isn't the right word because there really isn't much about the new performance to complain about. Some people might even call it 'nit picking', I suppose! I mean,let's face it,you can't place this in the same category as the awful, (well I think so), Naxos recording of Brian's Symphony No 2 v the Mackerras performance. And I really can't understand why anyone would prefer any aspect of THAT to the Mackerras recording. But maybe some would?
On the other hand,we all have different opinions & react in different ways. I know that the 'famous' Naxos performance of the 'Gothic' had it's share of ungrateful critics. Personally I hated it so much it nearly put me off Brian for years. To this day my favourite performance is the one by Ole Schmidt,but I know that allot of people would disagree with me. Some composers are of course even unluckier than Brian. Charles Tournemire's lovely Second Symphony,for example,which is at the mercy of one pretty lousy Marco Polo cd,yet the wonderful scoring somehow filters through despite the odds.
   As to Bryden Thomson,whatever the critics say,he's hardly incompetent. I personally like the way his more lesiurely conducting allows Bax's gorgeous orchestral textures & moods more time to 'breathe'. I feel that Thomson is more in tune with Bax's romantic,yearning moods. And................I could go on,but this is not the place to talk about Bax,is it,except to add my admiration for an underrated & very adventurous conductor who did a heck of allot to bring Bax & other neglected composers to a wider audience. I also wish he'd been able to get around to recording the symphonies of my fellow country man, Daniel Jones. Alas!

Luke

Quote from: cilgwyn on March 16, 2011, 05:41:25 AM
As to the LSSO of the 10th,I think you just get so used to hearing a particular recording in your head,and unlike some other works by other British composers,there hasn't exactly been allot of choice. Another point too,this thing about hearing a particular recording 'in your head' reminds me of the R3 broadcast of the Ole Schmidt 'Gothic',when I was a teenager. I recorded the broadcast on cassette & like some teenagers on an old 'piano key' type mono cassette recorder positioned in front of the radio. Somehow the second tape got damaged or the recording went wrong. When I finally secured a recording of the entire symphony from a HB member. For years I kept 'hearing' the break where the C90 cassette side ended.

I had a similar experience with my first Gothic, which was just the Lenard, on cassette (don't ask why, but it was my first Brian, and I didn't know what to expect!) The female voices which begin the Judex - that initial cluster, as it crescendoed, had a horrible veering sharpwards and then back again over the course of a second or less. But, such is the extent to which I wore out that tape, it took me a long time to unlearn this!

Quote from: cilgwyn on March 16, 2011, 05:41:25 AMA less subtle example & dangerously off topic,perhaps? When I finally replaced my old LP of Emerson Lake & Palmer's 'Pictures of an Exhibition' (a very ott 70's Progressive rock group with big ideas,for those who haven't heard of them) I kept 'hearing' the bit where the needle jumped a track.

Again, something similar for me - my first Planets was the Halle/Loughran one, and it was a needle skip in Neptune, one of those already-repetitive swaying chord patterns, so that the skipping almost fit. I liked that one..!

vandermolen

Quote from: Christo on March 16, 2011, 03:05:24 AM
:D I do hope you will all meet & reunite around the Gothic in July. Regretfully, I won't be there. But definitely next time!  ;)

I'm hopeful that you wont be able to escape a reunion in the near future.  :D
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

karlhenning

Quote from: Luke on March 16, 2011, 10:01:24 AM
Again, something similar for me - my first Planets was the Halle/Loughran one, and it was a needle skip in Neptune, one of those already-repetitive swaying chord patterns, so that the skipping almost fit. I liked that one..!

Hah!

vandermolen

#686
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 16, 2011, 05:41:25 AM
'Dundonell' is before my time as a 'poster' on this message board,but I have found some of his posts very useful when I have been trying to find out something about a particular work or composer.
As to the LSSO of the 10th,I think you just get so used to hearing a particular recording in your head,and unlike some other works by other British composers,there hasn't exactly been allot of choice. Another point too,this thing about hearing a particular recording 'in your head' reminds me of the R3 broadcast of the Ole Schmidt 'Gothic',when I was a teenager. I recorded the broadcast on cassette & like some teenagers on an old 'piano key' type mono cassette recorder positioned in front of the radio. Somehow the second tape got damaged or the recording went wrong. When I finally secured a recording of the entire symphony from a HB member. For years I kept 'hearing' the break where the C90 cassette side ended.
A less subtle example & dangerously off topic,perhaps? When I finally replaced my old LP of Emerson Lake & Palmer's 'Pictures of an Exhibition' (a very ott 70's Progressive rock group with big ideas,for those who haven't heard of them) I kept 'hearing' the bit where the needle jumped a track.
They do say the first recording you hear is the one you like best, (needle skips aside), Maybe I just need to listen to the new recording a bit more,it really isn't THAT bad (joking!)!!!
  Regarding the Unicorn cd. I wasn't being entirely serious about it being 'Snowdon' Vandermolen,but thanks for telling me. It seems you've been higher than me. My highest summit so far,mountain wise is 'Carningli' in North Pembrokeshire. Eat your heart out Edmund Hillary!

Oh yes, Emerson Lake and Palmer's 'Pictures at an Exhibition' I had the LP. The inscription 'Mussorgsky/Lake' at the end of tracks struck me as hilariously pretentious even as a teenager.  I agree with you about Bryden Thomson and prefer his Bax cycle to the Vernon Handley too. Of the 25 CD recordings of Walton's 1st Symphony that I possess (it's known as Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder), the Bryden Thomson on Chandos is probably the best and there are many other great recordings too (VW Symphony 4, 6 and 9) Elgar's 'Music Makers' etcetc. Alexander Gibson is another underrated conducted -wonderful in Sibelius, VW No 5 is one of the best. I have almost certainly not been mountaineering higher than you! I am definitely an armchair explorer. Putting a CD on is about the most strenuous thing I do! Getting back to HB - I think that the new Dutton CD ranks with Stanley Bates symphonies 3 and 4 and Richard Arnell's symphonies 3-5 as my most treasured CDs.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

karlhenning

Quote from: vandermolen on March 16, 2011, 11:35:34 AM
Oh yes, Emerson Lake and Palmer's 'Pictures at an Exhibition' I had the LP. The inscription 'Mussorgsky/Lake' at the end of tracks struck me as hilariously pretentious even as a teenager.

Heavens! I'd clean forgotten that . . . .

vandermolen

Quote from: Apollon on March 16, 2011, 11:43:29 AM
Heavens! I'd clean forgotten that . . . .

So had I until cilgwyn's post!
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

J.Z. Herrenberg

I think the main reason I prefer the 'new' Tenth to the old one has less to do with the merits of the orchestras concerned. The LSSO did a terrific job. That I have played their recording innumerable times the past 30 years says it all.


No, the thing that swings it for me is simply the conductor. Brabbins has a finer grasp of the Brian style. And he has an excellent sense of pace. One example out of many - at the beginning, just after the opening has ended, you immediately get a change in atmosphere:- a solo oboe and a muttering bassoon have a weird dialogue, 6 bars long, whilst a flute sings in the heights. In the Loughran the tempo is slower than Brian stipulates, making the whole thing sound ponderous. I always subconsciously skipped this passage and saw it as just a bridge to more appealing matter. But Brabbins plays it as Brian wrote it, and now you feel the tempo of the opening still present behind it, you feel that the story is continuing...


Brian once said of Delius' 'Mass of Life': Plot is always with us. And this is exactly what Brabbyns does - he tells a story, everything is subservient to an overarching view of the work. That's why the fact that certain things don't 'stand out' as spectacularly as in the LSSO performance don't matter too much to me - I feel at the end we have been on a very coherent journey, in spite of all the dazzling variety.
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

vandermolen

Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 16, 2011, 07:25:57 AM
Here is John Whitmore, who took part in that historic LSSO recording of the Tenth, playing the violin:


Now for the verdict on the 10th. The LSSO acoustic was very dry and unforgiving. A bit more glow would have masked some of the intonation issues. The new one is a bit too washy for my tastes and the horns and brass are often lost in the texture. Somewhere between the two would be perfect. The playing on the new disc is, of course, much superior to a load of kids who weren't even music students but interpretively speaking I prefer sections of the LSSO as follows:

1) The pppp section before the storm is riveting by the LSSO. Brabbins doesn't achieve the stillness required. There's no feeling that something catastrophic is about to come.

2) The storm section is hair raising in the LSSO and quite sedate in the new recording. Those piercing trumpets and trombones are swamped in the acoustic and have no bite. It's all a bit tame.

3) Just before the return of the violin solo there is the famous chord that "stares sphinx like" according to Bob Simpson. The LSSO get this just right and it's a hair raising moment. With Brabbins it's just a passing chord with no feeling of doom or isolation about it.


4) The fact that the LSSO are stretched gives the music a sort of primitive feeling and there is the sense of sitting on the edge of a precipice all the time. This doesn't come through in the new version because the playing is so good that the sense of danger is missing.Overall, a lovely disc and I like it a lot. I still think that there is a place for both versions which is great testament to the LSSO.

How very interesting - thanks for posting this.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

cilgwyn

Glad I'm not the only Bryden Thomson admirer in the world. His 'time' may come,yet! I know that some speak well of his V-W! I recently invested in some Barbirolli cd's,another conductor who is supposed to have been prone to indulge a little too much. Now I can't enough!
Regarding ELP's 'Pictures'. I remember we were listening to a broadcast of someone playing Beethoven or some great composer, I forget who, and getting annoyed by all the coughing. I remembered the,by comparison, hushed silence while Greg Lake,or was it Keith Emerson was singing some terrible words to Mussorgsky on the ELP album & thinking well,no one's going to distract a genius like that with a bit of coughing,but poor old Beethoven.!
I've been meaning to buy the cd for years,but for some reason never do. Maybe one fine day!
Incidentally,I understand that Jimi Hendrix considered joining them at one point. The new line up would have been,appropriately, HELP!
Alexander Gibson! I remember actually buying cd's of his Sibelius symphony in Boots the Chemist,of all places.  I love VW & I shall have to hear his Fifth.
One conductor I can't stand is Bernstein,except in American music,maybe. He was such so big headed. Although I read recently that he was interested in conducting the 'Gothic'. If ths IS true he has definately gone up a jot in my estimation.

vandermolen

Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 16, 2011, 12:13:50 PM
I think the main reason I prefer the 'new' Tenth to the old one has less to do with the merits of the orchestras concerned. The LSSO did a terrific job. That I have played their recording innumerable times the past 30 years says it all.


No, the thing that swings it for me is simply the conductor. Brabbins has a finer grasp of the Brian style. And he has an excellent sense of pace. One example out of many - at the beginning, just after the opening has ended, you immediately get a change in atmosphere:- a solo oboe and a muttering bassoon have a weird dialogue, 6 bars long, whilst a flute sings in the heights. In the Loughran the tempo is slower than Brian stipulates, making the whole thing sound ponderous. I always subconsciously skipped this passage and saw it as just a bridge to more appealing matter. But Brabbins plays it as Brian wrote it, and now you feel the tempo of the opening still present behind it, you feel that the story is continuing...


Brian once said of Delius' 'Mass of Life': Plot is always with us. And this is exactly what Brabbyns does - he tells a story, everything is subservient to an overarching view of the work. That's why the fact that certain things don't 'stand out' as spectacularly as in the LSSO performance don't matter too much to me - I feel at the end we have been on a very coherent journey, in spite of all the dazzling variety.

I can't follow the score but this rings true to me of the new recording.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

cilgwyn


vandermolen

Quote from: cilgwyn on March 16, 2011, 12:16:04 PM
Glad I'm not the only Bryden Thomson admirer in the world. His 'time' may come,yet! I know that some speak well of his V-W! I recently invested in some Barbirolli cd's,another conductor who is supposed to have been prone to indulge a little too much. Now I can't enough!
Regarding ELP's 'Pictures'. I remember we were listening to a broadcast of someone playing Beethoven or some great composer, I forget who, and getting annoyed by all the coughing. I remembered the,by comparison, hushed silence while Greg Lake,or was it Keith Emerson was singing some terrible words to Mussorgsky on the ELP album & thinking well,no one's going to distract a genius like that with a bit of coughing,but poor old Beethoven.!
I've been meaning to buy the cd for years,but for some reason never do. Maybe one fine day!
Incidentally,I understand that Jimi Hendrix considered joining them at one point. The new line up would have been,appropriately, HELP!
Alexander Gibson! I remember actually buying cd's of his Sibelius symphony in Boots the Chemist,of all places.  I love VW & I shall have to hear his Fifth.
One conductor I can't stand is Bernstein,except in American music,maybe. He was such so big headed. Although I read recently that he was interested in conducting the 'Gothic'. If ths IS true he has definately gone up a jot in my estimation.

OT. There is an excellent EMI double CD including Paavo Berglund's great performance of VW Symphony No 6 (there are very few good recordings of this work IMHO) and Alexander Gibson's recording of Symphony No 5 - with one of the most moving slow movewments of all. Barbirolli was very good in both these works too (EMI/Orfeo).
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

cilgwyn

Ok! Once the Beethoven Sixth, (Karajan dg 1963,since we're talking about conductors) finishes I'm defiately bunging the  Brabbins 'Brian 10' back on. Roll over Beethoven. (For a while,anyway).

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: cilgwyn on March 16, 2011, 12:26:44 PM
Ok! Once the Beethoven Sixth, (Karajan dg 1963,since we're talking about conductors) finishes I'm defiately bunging the  Brabbins 'Brian 10' back on. Roll over Beethoven. (For a while,anyway).


Very good. Report back!
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

cilgwyn

Yes,I have the Barbirolli,coupled with 'Tintagel'. Wish he'd recorded,or been able,to record more Bax. Oh well! Off to have a bit of supper now.
NB: Thanks for the cd tips! Berglund would certainly be an interesting choice for VW!

vandermolen

Quote from: cilgwyn on March 16, 2011, 12:33:04 PM
Yes,I have the Barbirolli,coupled with 'Tintagel'. Wish he'd recorded,or been able,to record more Bax. Oh well! Off to have a bit of supper now.
NB: Thanks for the cd tips! Berglund would certainly be an interesting choice for VW!

OT

Well, we'll let you have some supper - here is the link:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vaughan-Williams-Symphonies-Nos-Ralph/dp/B0018OAP2U/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300307809&sr=1-1
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Christo

Quote from: cilgwyn on March 16, 2011, 12:16:04 PM
Glad I'm not the only Bryden Thomson admirer in the world. His 'time' may come,yet! I know that some speak well of his V-W!

Completely OOT in this `great reunification of weird old men (like I am ) in love with even weirder Havergal Brian symphonies' thread - but I happen to do.

Thomson's RVW cycle is my personal favourite, among them all. A pity he didn't live to do a complete HB cycle as well.  ;)
... music is not only an 'entertainment', nor a mere luxury, but a necessity of the spiritual if not of the physical life, an opening of those magic casements through which we can catch a glimpse of that country where ultimate reality will be found.    RVW, 1948