Havergal Brian.

Started by Harry, June 09, 2007, 04:36:53 AM

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Mirror Image

#700
I think it's astonishing that a composer like Havergal Brian, who is hardly acknowledged as one of the 20th Century's greatest composers, has this many pages in a thread when someone like Stravinsky, Bartok, Schoenberg, Ravel, Debussy, Janacek, Sibelius, etc. don't have that many at all? I don't think Brian is a terrible composer, so don't think I'm trying to be negative here just for the sake of it. I just think that his importance is of little significance compared to the composers I mentioned above.

Is the Gothic a huge symphonic work? Yes. Does it take half of the population of China to play it? Well...not really, but you might as well throw them in too, because you won't be able to hear them because the orchestration is thicker than pea soup. :P Does this mean that it can stand against such masterpieces as Mahler's 9th or Sibelius' 7th? Absolutely not. My point is that Brian's music has limited appeal, but it is hard to not be moved by some of the sections in Gothic. I just wonder why hasn't a better commercial recording come along of this symphony? Is the symphony so vast that it can't be captured live? I think with all of the modern technology we have today, this symphony could be performed and recorded much better. Since this symphony takes two orchestras: why not get the LSO and the CBSO together and I know it takes many choirs, so get these two orchestra's choirs and whatever else they need to together? On paper it seems like an impossible task, but it could be done. Cut the record in a cathedral where you can hold a huge orchestra and then....oh God who I'm kidding! We're lucky we even have a studio recording of it at all! Damn Brian and his giant ass symphony! :P

Sorry for the rant here folks, the meds haven't kicked in yet.

Lethevich

#701
I love Brian but almost never listen to the Gothic. Some people can't seem to get past it - I find his later style (which is no less personal and individual than the composers you mention) more to my taste.

I don't really care for the supposed heirachy of composers. I'll acknowledge that a lot of people seem keen on it, but I'd sooner listen to Brian's symphonies than Schubert's.

Edit: elaboration, plus nice reply Jezetha :)
Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.

J.Z. Herrenberg

"I think it's astonishing that a composer like Havergal Brian, who is hardly acknowledged as one of the 20th Century's greatest composers, has this many pages in a thread when someone like Stravinsky, Bartok, Schoenberg, Ravel, Debussy, Janacek, Sibelius, etc. don't have that many at all? I don't think Brian is a terrible composer, so don't think I'm trying to be negative here just for the sake of it. I just think that his importance is of little significance compared to the composers I mentioned above."

The indubitably great composers you mention don't have so many pages for the simple fact that their reputation has been made and is unassailable. They are so present, that we can't imagine them NOT being acknowledged as great. The time before they were a 'name' has long been forgotten. They have entered the canon.

Not so with Brian. During his lifetime he was mostly ignored, for a whole host of reasons. Brian had no connections and was socially awkward. The First World War brought the ascendency of Stravinsky and Schoenberg (to put it simply), and music that was a less conspicuously revolutionary development from several strands of nineteenth-century music was considered passé, as Progress was all. Now, in 2011, Havergal Brian is one of the best-known of the more obscure composers, mainly because of the 'Gothic'. The scale of his achievement is still unclear, as the vicious cycle of 'they don't play him, so he mustn't be any good, so we won't programme him' makes the discovery almost impossible.

Fortunately, there has been Robert Simpson, who was able to promote Brian's work at the BBC. That all the symphonies have been played at least once is due to him. And enthusiasts like me have taken the trouble - no trouble, really! - of taking Brian seriously and listen to everything that has been recorded and reading most of the things that have been written about his music. And when you have done that, and have lived with the music, there can be no doubt that Brian at his best has given us a few of the strongest and most original symphonies of the 20th century. And I don't mention the operas, because most of them are still terra incognita.

So, in conclusion - Brian is a great composer, but he still needs the advocacy. And that's why he gets all these pages here. With Stravinsky et al all you have to do is discuss recordings and performances. You don't have to prove Stravinsky's worth, because that work has already been done. But Brian is not in that position. And that's why his case still has to be fought for. Which I, and others, like to do...
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

mc ukrneal

Quote from: Mirror Image on March 16, 2011, 06:25:14 PM
I think it's astonishing that a composer like Havergal Brian, who is hardly acknowledged as one of the 20th Century's greatest composers, has this many pages in a thread when someone like Stravinsky, Bartok, Schoenberg, Ravel, Debussy, Janacek, Sibelius, etc. don't have that many at all? I don't think Brian is a terrible composer, so don't think I'm trying to be negative here just for the sake of it. I just think that his importance is of little significance compared to the composers I mentioned above.

Is the Gothic a huge symphonic work? Yes. Does it take half of the population of China to play it? Well...not really, but you might as well throw them in too, because you won't be able to hear them because the orchestration is thicker than pea soup. :P Does this mean that it can stand against such masterpieces as Mahler's 9th or Sibelius' 7th? Absolutely not. My point is that Brian's music has limited appeal, but it is hard to not be moved by some of the sections in Gothic. I just wonder why hasn't a better commercial recording come along of this symphony? Is the symphony so vast that it can't be captured live? I think with all of the modern technology we have today, this symphony could be performed and recorded much better. Since this symphony takes two orchestras: why not get the LSO and the CBSO together and I know it takes many choirs, so get these two orchestra's choirs and whatever else they need to together? On paper it seems like an impossible task, but it could be done. Cut the record in a cathedral where you can hold a huge orchestra and then....oh God who I'm kidding! We're lucky we even have a studio recording of it at all! Damn Brian and his giant ass symphony! :P

Sorry for the rant here folks, the meds haven't kicked in yet.
Yesterday, I was just thinking how this is one of my favorite threads on the forums. People are genuinely excited about the composer and that excitement is infectious. People are postive - I was thinking how all the 'nay-sayers' had somehow missed this thread and the thread was the stronger for it. I love how much I am learning from everything being posted. And though I have never heard the tenth, it has been fascinating to listen to the comparisons between the two versions dicsussed. And all of this in a civil manner too!

All I can say is, I hope it continues. Love this thread!!
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

Luke

Quote from: Mirror Image on March 16, 2011, 06:25:14 PM
I think it's astonishing that a composer like Havergal Brian, who is hardly acknowledged as one of the 20th Century's greatest composers, has this many pages in a thread when someone like Stravinsky, Bartok, Schoenberg, Ravel, Debussy, Janacek, Sibelius, etc. don't have that many at all? I don't think Brian is a terrible composer, so don't think I'm trying to be negative here just for the sake of it. I just think that his importance is of little significance compared to the composers I mentioned above.

In that little list of composers you mention some absolute giants, including two composers who will forever be right at the top of my own personal list of 'soulmate' composers (Janacek, Ravel*). Nevertheless, I quite understand why a thread such as this one can grow and grow, whilst ones for more established composers remain fairly stunted. It's partly for the reasons Johan and others give - essentially that there's so much to say about Brian, so many issues to be discussed, the vast body of music, much of it almost terra incognita but enough of it known, especially by the more intrepid Brianites here, for its quality to be well established; excitement about new recordings, performances, rumours of them too... rumours of a new Sibelius symphony recording are never going to be as exciting, are they?

There's also the fact that Brian is a symphonist, and symphonies to tend to garner a lot of attention. Of the composers you mention as not getting threads the length they deserve, Janacek isn't a symphonist. Ravel isn't. Debussy isn't. Bartok isn't. Stravinksy isn't, Schoenberg isn't. But Sibelius is and - guess what! - actually he does have a pretty long thread, doesn't he? So a composer of 32 symphonies, whose admirers are very passionate and whose work and its promulgation have so many facets worth discussion - of course he gets a long thread. And, as mentioned above, it's one of the finest threads on the board, too...

* what's odd is that Brian is on that list too, and so is Tippett....the fastidious Ravel fits rather oddly with that bunch!)

John Whitmore

I've been listening to the new CD of the Brian Symphony No.10. This is the only Brian work that has any interest for me personally and I really admire it. None of his other music really does a lot for me (Oops, please don't shoot me Johan!!). I thought I would like to add a comment to this very interesting thread. I think Brabbins must know the LSSO version because it is very similar - but with proper tone and intonation!! This is superb but I still think the kids did a great job and they are outclassed but not disgraced. Now for my own verdict on the 10th, if you allow me. The LSSO acoustic was very dry and unforgiving - De Montfort Hall is beautiful when listening live but as a recording venue it doesn't work. A bit more glow would have masked some of the intonation issues. The new CD is a bit too washy for my tastes and the horns and brass are often lost in the texture. Somewhere between the two would be perfect. The playing on the new disc is, of course, much superior to a load of kids who weren't even music students but interpretively speaking I prefer sections of the LSSO as follows:
1) The pppp section before the storm is riveting by the LSSO. Brabbins doesn't achieve the stillness required. There's no feeling that something catastrophic is about to come.
2) The storm section is like all hell broke loose in the LSSO and quite sedate in the new recording. Those piercing trumpets and trombones are swamped in the acoustic and have no bite. It's all a bit tame.
3) Just before the return of the violin solo there is the chord that "stares sphinx like" according to Bob Simpson (now there's a great composer!). The LSSO get this just right and it's a hair raising moment. With Brabbins it's just a passing chord with no feeling of doom or isolation about it.
4) The fact that the LSSO are stretched gives the music a sort of primitive feeling and there is the sense of sitting on the edge of a   precipice all the time. This doesn't come through in the new version because the playing is so good that the sense of danger is missing.
Overall, a fine new disc and I like it a lot. I still think that there is a place for both versions which is great testament to the LSSO. I still recall the LSSO rehearsals quite vividly and remember how shocking the parts were. Mistakes all over the place and impossible page turns. In summary I think that the LSSO version has a feeling of discovery and an epic occasion to it. Despite the superior professional playing offered by Dutton this feeling of something special is, in my humble opinion, missing.

John Whitmore

#706
I see that Johan already posted the comments I made to him via email about the Brian 10 CD. Sorry to duplicate effort here. By the way, I'm the bloke who put the Unknown Warrior and Brian 10/LSSO Reunion clips up on YouTube. One final comment - Bob Simpson was superb with his support of the LSSO/Brian LP sessions and the brilliant Angus McKenzie gave him terrific technical back up. Brian was a nice change from the usual LSSO diet of Tippett, Ives and Hindemith but the music was only rehearsed fleetingly for the De Montfort sessions. The symphomies weren't part of the orchestra's regular repertoire. I recall No.21 having a run out at Loughborough but No.10 never saw the light of day. Just run throughs in Birstall and the De Montfort Hall session. To be blunt the LSSO were chosen because they were cheap and capable of giving it a shot without much fuss and limited time.

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: Johnwh51 on March 17, 2011, 04:23:59 AM
I see that Johan already posted the comments I made to him via email about the Brian 10 CD. Sorry to duplicate effort here. By the way, I'm the bloke who put the Unknown Warrior and Brian 10/LSSO Reunion clips up on YouTube. One final comment - Bob Simpson was superb with his support of the LSSO/Brian LP sessions and the brilliant Angus McKenzie gave him terrific technical back up. Brian was a nice change from the usual LSSO diet of Tippett, Ives and Hindemith but the music was only rehearsed fleetingly for the De Montfort sessions. The symphomies weren't part of the orchestra's regular repertoire. I recall No.21 having a run out at Loughborough but No.10 never saw the light of day. Just run throughs in Bistrall and the De Montfort Hall session. To be blunt the LSSO were chosen because they were cheap and capable of giving it a shot without much fuss and limited time.

I don't mind the duplication - it's great you took the trouble of signing on in the first place, John! And now the comment is more authentic, as the horse's mouth itself is here...
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

karlhenning

Quote from: Luke on March 17, 2011, 02:03:21 AM
In that little list of composers you mention some absolute giants, including two composers who will forever be right at the top of my own personal list of 'soulmate' composers (Janacek, Ravel*). Nevertheless, I quite understand why a thread such as this one can grow and grow, whilst ones for more established composers remain fairly stunted. It's partly for the reasons Johan and others give - essentially that there's so much to say about Brian, so many issues to be discussed, the vast body of music, much of it almost terra incognita but enough of it known, especially by the more intrepid Brianites here, for its quality to be well established; excitement about new recordings, performances, rumours of them too... rumours of a new Sibelius symphony recording are never going to be as exciting, are they?

Hard to imagine they would be, since the whole Sibelius cycle (and deservedly) has been recorded, repeatedly, in many parts of the world.

Quote from: LukeThere's also the fact that Brian is a symphonist, and symphonies to tend to garner a lot of attention. Of the composers you mention as not getting threads the length they deserve, Janacek isn't a symphonist. Ravel isn't. Debussy isn't. Bartok isn't. Stravinksy isn't, Schoenberg isn't. But Sibelius is and - guess what! - actually he does have a pretty long thread, doesn't he? So a composer of 32 symphonies, whose admirers are very passionate and whose work and its promulgation have so many facets worth discussion - of course he gets a long thread. And, as mentioned above, it's one of the finest threads on the board, too...

There must be a multi-textured answer here, but it is curious how symphony-centric The Turf in general, and GMG in particular, can trend.

Quote from: Luke* what's odd is that Brian is on that list too, and so is Tippett....the fastidious Ravel fits rather oddly with that bunch!)

But any list other, would not be you, mon ami ; )

cilgwyn

The new Dutton performance of No 10 is very impressive,but after much deliberation the earlier LSSO performance clinches it for me for precisely the reasons 'John' outlines better han I ever could.

cilgwyn

'than I ever could'! This is what happens when you're trying to do two things at once!
Anyway,it's the LSSO for me.

Mirror Image

Well its good that my unmedicated rant could stir up some more interesting discussion. :D I have read all the points-of-view and I'll have to dig my Brian recordings back out. I definitely want to hear the Gothic again anyway.

J.Z. Herrenberg

#712
@cilgwyn I can understand your preference. Hopefully, in 2050, a third performance comes around which will satisfy us all... ;)

@MI Avoid those meds and join us more often.
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

John Whitmore

It's a pity that the great Eric Pinkett isn't around. He could look at this thread and record it again!!!

John Whitmore

By the way,  somebody in an earlier post compares Brian 10 to the Symphony in One Movement (now called Symphony No.1) by Robin Orr. By pure coincidence the LSSO also played this under the baton of Norman Del Mar. The concert at Fairfield Hall, Croydon also included Checkmate by Bliss and Rawsthorne's Piano Concerto No.2. Alexander Gibson recorded this symphony for EMI but it doesn't really do the Scottish National much justice. It was probably just one of those days with a muddled recording and less than exciting playing. I have two versions that I taped many years ago and they can be found at a link I shared with Johan if you are interested (I can't work out how to add a link to this post!!). This is a taut, tuneful symphony with an excellent structure. The fizzimg string writing is a delight and the use of the timps is superb. It has a few Brian moments as well.......

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: Johnwh51 on March 17, 2011, 08:32:27 AM
By the way,  somebody in an earlier post compares Brian 10 to the Symphony in One Movement (now called Symphony No.1) by Robin Orr. By pure coincidence the LSSO also played this under the baton of Norman Del Mar. The concert at Fairfield Hall, Croydon also included Checkmate by Bliss and Rawsthorne's Piano Concerto No.2. Alexander Gibson recorded this symphony for EMI but it doesn't really do the Scottish National much justice. It was probably just one of those days with a muddled recording and less than exciting playing. I have two versions that I taped many years ago and they can be found at a link I shared with Johan if you are interested (I can't work out how to add a link to this post!!). This is a taut, tuneful symphony with an excellent structure. The fizzimg string writing is a delight and the use of the timps is superb. It has a few Brian moments as well.......


I'll help you out, John...


http://www.mediafire.com/?2bpq9932w1hl9
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

cilgwyn

Yes,Eric Pinkett with a professional orchestra,I like the idea. But would it have been as good? Sadly,we'll never know. Although maybe,one day,I'll get my Bryden Thomson Daniel Jones cycle,because he recorded allot,if not all of them for the BBC. Come on Dutton/ Testament,I'll buy them!!!
Have to say 'Mirror image' this debate has been going on for a very,very long time over the years & long before the internet. Over the years I've read all sorts of horrible things about Brian's supporters,not to mention his music. David Hurwitz's was one of the most memorable. According to him we're all bald,have rotten teeth & suffer from 'halitosis',if memory serves me correctly!!!!! He does seem to like some of his music though!
Here's to the 1,000.000th post!

NB: The debate here is certainly more genteel than some of the posts elsewhere regarding Henry Cowell. It strikes me that Cowell was someone who strove deperately hard to be a 20th c original all,or most of his life,yet ultimately failed,(even though I quite like his eleventh symphony!!!) Brian,on the other hand,merely had to crack his knuckles to be an original.

cilgwyn

I'll just have a look for me false teef now!

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: cilgwyn on March 17, 2011, 09:08:04 AM
I'll just have a look for me false teef now!

They're over here.
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

John Whitmore

Johan, how did you do the linky thing to the Robin Orr? I'm impressed. Have you listened to it yet?