Havergal Brian.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Johan, how did you do the linky thing to the Robin Orr? I'm impressed. Have you listened to it yet?

Will grab a bite shortly, but okay - when you write a post, you see a window. You can see a line of smileys and above them several icons - if you click on the third from the left, you get to paste a hyperlink. The second one from the left is for images.


As for Orr - haven't had the time yet...


Dinner!

[cilgwyn]

I'm pretty certain I've got an off air recording of the 'Orr' symphony on ye olde cassette somewhere. I will have a look for it (& click on that link!)

[John Whitmore]

Just been having another scan through this thread. Bryden (Jack) Thomson, by the way, was a supreme professional. Orchestras loved him and he was very charming. The sort of bloke you would have a night out in the pub with (ditto Sir John). His way with Nielsen is well worth a listen. He was also a magnificent accompanist and had the ability to work very quickly and think on his feet. I put him in that category of unassuming pros - you know, Pritchard, Del Mar, Gibson etc. I'm no huge fan of Bax but of the three sets I seem to have accumulated I have a sneaking regard for Thomson and also for Lloyd-Jones. Handley is also very fine but I prefer his ancient LPs with the Guildford Phil. Pity they haven't resurfaced.

[not edward]

His way with Nielsen is well worth a listen.

Minor orchestra or not, I think that his recording of the 6th is something very special, one of the few I've heard turn its somewhat cranky and eccentric design into a thoroughly convincing narrative. And from the way they play on this recording, it's clear the sometimes wilful RSNO has bought completely into his vision of the work. A great recording, and I say this as someone who emphatically dislikes his Martinu set with the same orchestra.

If he could conduct a Nielsen Sixth like that, I do wonder what he could have done with Brian's often similarly cranky symphonies.

[Mirror Image]

@MI Avoid those meds and join us more often.

Maybe I will, maybe I will. 

[vandermolen]

I've been listening to the new CD of the Brian Symphony No.10. This is the only Brian work that has any interest for me personally and I really admire it. None of his other music really does a lot for me (Oops, please don't shoot me Johan!!). I thought I would like to add a comment to this very interesting thread. I think Brabbins must know the LSSO version because it is very similar - but with proper tone and intonation!! This is superb but I still think the kids did a great job and they are outclassed but not disgraced. Now for my own verdict on the 10th, if you allow me. The LSSO acoustic was very dry and unforgiving - De Montfort Hall is beautiful when listening live but as a recording venue it doesn't work. A bit more glow would have masked some of the intonation issues. The new CD is a bit too washy for my tastes and the horns and brass are often lost in the texture. Somewhere between the two would be perfect. The playing on the new disc is, of course, much superior to a load of kids who weren't even music students but interpretively speaking I prefer sections of the LSSO as follows:
1) The pppp section before the storm is riveting by the LSSO. Brabbins doesn't achieve the stillness required. There's no feeling that something catastrophic is about to come.
2) The storm section is like all hell broke loose in the LSSO and quite sedate in the new recording. Those piercing trumpets and trombones are swamped in the acoustic and have no bite. It's all a bit tame.
3) Just before the return of the violin solo there is the chord that "stares sphinx like" according to Bob Simpson (now there's a great composer!). The LSSO get this just right and it's a hair raising moment. With Brabbins it's just a passing chord with no feeling of doom or isolation about it.
4) The fact that the LSSO are stretched gives the music a sort of primitive feeling and there is the sense of sitting on the edge of a   precipice all the time. This doesn't come through in the new version because the playing is so good that the sense of danger is missing.
Overall, a fine new disc and I like it a lot. I still think that there is a place for both versions which is great testament to the LSSO. I still recall the LSSO rehearsals quite vividly and remember how shocking the parts were. Mistakes all over the place and impossible page turns. In summary I think that the LSSO version has a feeling of discovery and an epic occasion to it. Despite the superior professional playing offered by Dutton this feeling of something special is, in my humble opinion, missing.

I'm surprised that if you like No 10 that you don't like 8 and 9 too as I find the idiom and appeal very similar.  No 8 is a masterpiece in my opinion.  Certainly Harold Truscott (the composer of another granitic Symphony which might appeal to Brianites) saw symphonies 8 to 10 as belonging together. I mentioned the Orr Symphony which I really like. It has a similar epic granitic feel but like Brian's No 10 is short - in one movement. Even more like Brian is Chavez's granitic Symphony No 4 - but other might disagree (although disagreement is rare on this forum  )

[karlhenning]

I love Brian but almost never listen to the Gothic. Some people can't seem to get past it . . . .

Some folks are like that with L'oiseau de feu, for Stravinsky.

I have more absorption of the Gothic ahead of me, but  I enjoyed the later symphonies in the other Naxos disc I fetched in even better in some ways.

[cilgwyn]

We'll have start a Bryden Thomson Appreciation Society. Haven't heard his Martinu.but much as I admire his work I can't really see him in that repertory. But then again maybe in the more relaxed symphonies? Sometimes the least critically rated  recordings turn out to be the most interesting. So,maybe I will take the plunge later on in the year. My own Martinu symphony cycle is the BIS Jarvi. Although my first encounter with Martinu was the Vaclav Neumann cycle. I recall seeing those Supraphon LP's with those wierd elongated heads on the cover in the record racks of Haverfordwest library,back in the days when libraries bought good hardback books & the nearest you got to Classic FM type type compilations were 'These you have loved'. I remember looking at those Lp's with their wierd cover designs and thinking WHAT'S THAT? Indeed,WHAT'S THAT turned out to some of the strangest most viscerally exciting music I'd ever heard. I even remember someone who had never heard Martinu hearing me playing one of the records & saying what superb playing it was.
These days it seems that no critic has a good word for poor old Vaclav Neumann. Was he REALLY that bad?

[cilgwyn]

NB He introduced me to a wonderful composer,so thank you Maestro Neumann for that!
     Okay,back to Brian!!!!

[Lethevich]

Neumann is too unassuming and lacking marketing "wow" to catch the eye of some lazy critics More often than not, recordings of his that I have heard have been top-drawer.

[mahler10th]

Johan, I took that copy of the tenth you posted earlier and see in the metadata it is James Loughran and the LSSO (what is LSSO?)  For some reason I don't know, I found this rather interesting.  On the playing of it, somewhere in the playing of it there are even similarities to Alan Pettersson.
I am now off to order some of the Brian that has been discussed.
I wish my fellow Scot Dundonnel was still active on this forum, he also has a significant insight into the works of Brian.

And Neumann was a very precise conductor, he is not for the masses but for the discerning masses.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

John, the LSSO is the Leicestershire Schools Symphony Orchestra. They made the first recording of Brian symphonies in 1972 (10 and 21).

[cilgwyn]

After my pro Neumann rant (!),I notice that Hurwitz rates his Dvorak cycle very highly,if not the best available!
Hm! I'll have to get round to hearing that.
One conductor who for some reason or other bores the socks off me is Simon Rattle. I don't really know why but even his most highly praised recordings seem to make once only trips to my cd player. I did enjoy his recording of Maw's 'Odyssey' when it came out,though. Although I haven't listened to it since.
Another conductor who seemed to get allot of negative press years ago was Svetlanov. Thankfully,the tide seems to have turned in his favour.
Regarding the LSSO Unicorn recording,it would be really nice if someone could re-issue that on a midprice or budget cd. The original cd would,currently,cost me just over £30 on Amazon,from a seller.
Also,regarding the granitic sound of Brian's orchestra. I found the old Collins single of Harrison Birtwistle's 'Earthdances' in a box a couple of days ago. Playing it today reminded me of this. I wonder if Birtwistle has ever heard any Brian? The two composers aren't exactly soundalikes,but there are some strange similarities. The 'growly' bass & brass sonorities,and the feeling of some thing huge almost elemental & that word again,'granitic'!
You'll probably think I'm bonkers comparing these two!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

It's possibly their 'Northern grit' which connects the two...

[karlhenning]

What do they need, a neti pot, then? ; )

[cilgwyn]

Of course I wouldn't care to compare a composer as lionized by the critics at Brian with a mere upstart like Birtwistle!!!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Quite right, cilgwyn!

[mahler10th]

Don't worry cilgwyn, I had the balls to say he sounded a bit like Alan Petterssson at times (or vice versa) in that tenth.  Perhaps hallucinogenics have manifest in my coffee or something, I must re-listen to hear what I was on about...

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I have more absorption of the Gothic ahead of me, but  I enjoyed the later symphonies in the other Naxos disc I fetched in even better in some ways.

Which symphonies, Karl?

[karlhenning]

17 & 32, Johan.

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