Havergal Brian.

Started by Harry, June 09, 2007, 04:36:53 AM

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cilgwyn

Before I upset anyone here,I would like to point out that my reactions to the Naxos recordings are largely subjective & in fact only apply to the cd's I mentioned. But,as someone who used,as a teenager, to selfishly brain my family with regular traversals of Havergal Brian's output,including the 'Gothic' at full blast, I can only say that I was obsessed with Havergal brian for years. Yet after my initial enthusiasm for the Marco Polo 'Gothic',every single Naxos cd seemed only to confirm my opinion that some of Brian's most ardent critics might actually be right.
Then along came the Testament release of the 'Gothic' & suddenly I'm a Brian admirer all over again!
Having said that,I have to admit that the choirs on the Marco Polo recordings are absolutely marvellous!
The last three Naxos cd's are excellent,although I have to admit to preferring the old Ralph Holmes recording of the Violin Concerto,tut!tut!. I find the Naxos too rushed. Although,maybe that's the correct way to perform it?! I must say,I really do wish someone would release that performance on cd one day. I had a horrific accident with my cassette copy. I accidentally taped over the last few bars! I was gutted!!!

J.Z. Herrenberg

I love the old Ralph Holmes performance, cilgwyn, and in some respects I prefer it too.


I was fortunate - I became a member of the HBS in 1983. I got into contact with British members, visited them, and they began sending me copies of all the tapes they had. Some BBC performances have still not been bettered - 2 Mackerras, 7 Newstone (! though the EMI recording with Mackerras is excellent overall), 11 Newstone, 12 Del Mar, 15 Pope, 17 Pope, 18 Fairfax... I could remain an enthusiast, because I knew how good these works could be.
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

vandermolen

I just drove past a double-decker bus called 'Havergal Brian' on my way into work this morning!  I work in Brighton - not far from Shoreham where the great man lived for many years. I suspect that he would have been amused.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

J.Z. Herrenberg

Ah! A sighting in the wild of that fabled vehicle! Terrific. Somewhere in this thread I posted a photo. There is a website devoted to all those named Brighton buses...
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

vandermolen

Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 24, 2011, 11:49:19 PM
Ah! A sighting in the wild of that fabled vehicle! Terrific. Somewhere in this thread I posted a photo. There is a website devoted to all those named Brighton buses...

I thought of you immediately.  8)
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

J.Z. Herrenberg

Yep. I'm madness on wheels. With three side drums and a wind machine.
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

J.Z. Herrenberg

Behold the Bus itself!






Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Luke

....and on its limitless heaving seats....

vandermolen

"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

John Whitmore

Nice bus. Is it designed with Brian's music in mind? Noisy, unreliable, erratic, awkward gear changes, makes surprse turns at the most unexpected times, not many people appreciate it, rarely used by the bus company and has it's own on-line thread entitled "A great, unappreciated British bus". I'm in a mischievous mood today so please don't be offended. Listened to the LSSO 10th again last night followd by the new version. Had the LSSO been in tune they would win hands down. More tension and atmosphere. More sense of occasion.  I blame Eric Pinkett for not teaching us properly. On the advice of this thread I also gave the 8th yet another chance. Sorry, didn't like it. Johan, I've also ploughed through your files and listened again. Still don't get it. Maybe this isn't for me. I prefer the Robin Orr and Simpson's symphonies by a huge distance. Must go, I want to listen to The Midsummer Marriage.

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: Johnwh51 on March 25, 2011, 02:12:22 AM
Nice bus. Is it designed with Brian's music in mind? Noisy, unreliable, erratic, awkward gear changes, makes surprse turns at the most unexpected times, not many people appreciate it, rarely used by the bus company and has it's own on-line thread entitled "A great, unappreciated British bus". I'm in a mischievous mood today so please don't be offended. Listened to the LSSO 10th again last night followd by the new version. Had the LSSO been in tune they would win hands down. More tension and atmosphere. More sense of occasion.  I blame Eric Pinkett for not teaching us properly. On the advice of this thread I also gave the 8th yet another chance. Sorry, didn't like it. Johan, I've also ploughed through your files and listened again. Still don't get it. Maybe this isn't for me. I prefer the Robin Orr and Simpson's symphonies by a huge distance. Must go, I want to listen to The Midsummer Marriage.


I can appreciate your humour, John. A pity you and Brian don't seem to get along. I wonder what it is about the 10th that it's the only symphony you can connect with... As for the 10th - maybe a third recording will combine the best aspects of the first two: the fiery playing of the Loughran and the structural grasp and compelling tempi of the Brabbins. Good luck with Tippett!
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

John Whitmore

#771
The 10th has two or three good ideas and it works as a structure. It's not really a symphony, it's more of a symphonic poem in my view. It never gets bogged down and it doesn't suffer from hollow gestures. The scoring is actually very good and even in the Storm section you can here what is going on. I really rate it. Everything else I've tried (and I have) seems really uninspired. 21 and 22 (both LSSO) are patchy. With Mozart there's not a note too many. Nielsen has a clarity and purpose about him. I love these two composers. I'm no fan (or Fand!!) of Bax and Brian strikes me as being in a similar league. For every 30 seconds of inspiration - and there are many such moments - you have to plough through 10 minutes of pretty poor stuff. Only my opinion of course. I admire you Brianites and please keep at it. You clearly love the bloke's stuff and are doing a great job in trying to keep him alive. I fear it's an uphill struggle. There isn't a major international conductor playing Brian. The demise of the Marco Polo cycle summed it all up for me but to be fair most of the playing on those CDs is third rate. I have them all and it's only the Violin Concerto disc that offers real quality. The Hyperion 3rd is also not too clever. Since the early 70s I've had a fascination for Brian but the reality is that for all that fascination I don't care much for the dots he's put on the page. Sorry chaps!!

J.Z. Herrenberg

I like Bax, too, especially symphonies 1, 2 and 3. And Nielsen. And Simpson. But there is something in Brian's music that I respond to even more strongly. It's the sound, it's the unexpectedness of the structural processes, it's the condensation of style which reminds me of Joyce, Hopkins and others. Ergo: I don't have any problems with Brian. He is my favourite composer, and I can listen to him every day.
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

John Whitmore

BLIMEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

J.Z. Herrenberg

Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

John Whitmore

This board is clearly full of people who enjoy British Music. A fair few of you also mention the LSSO so I thought this may appeal. It's the first public performance of Tippett's Shires Suite, written for the LSSO and peformed by them under the baton of Tippett at the 1970 Cheltenham Festival. It's great fun. The folder also includes a terrific Circus Band by Charles Ives and a less than appealing and scrappy Rhapsody in Blue. Here's the link:

http://www.mediafire.com/?su6w8a4c2a01t

J.Z. Herrenberg

Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Luke

But I wonder, John, if the fact that the only Brian symphony you like is also the one you have played in is not a coincidence. In other words, you know the piece well, you experienced it from the inside, (and at a formative age, too) and you 'get' it. I say that because although I can understand a listener enjoying the 10th but not some of the later symphonies, at least one of the symphonies you've expressed a negative response to - the 8th - is stylistically close to the 10th (the youngest of the three 'brother' symphonies 8, 9 and 10, in fact). Personally, I think it's an even better symphony (it's my favourite Brian symphony; heck, it's my favourite British symphony, and sometimes I am tempted to go much further...). Even more personally - I think this is only me! - when I hear the word 'symphonism' I always think first of Brian's 8th. It's a piece which doesn't pay lip service to symphonic form but which really understands what lies at the roots of that form and is thus able to reinvent it in a completely successful, compelling way. What you describe as working for you in the 10th (and I suppose by implication what you're missing in the others) - 'The 10th has two or three good ideas and it works as a structure' - holds doubly true for the 8th, IMO: a piece which rewrites what a symphony can be from the inside, an explosive confrontation between two musical types which grows ever more extreme until it bursts into the extraordinary final passacaglie: the sonata principle reimagined with complete conviction and purpose, expressed using material of a really high quality, not a note too many, every nuance memorable.

karlhenning

Quote from: Luke on March 25, 2011, 02:01:06 AM
....and on its limitless heaving seats....

It's the journey, not the destination . . . .

John Whitmore

A good theory Luke. I played the Robin Orr Symphony and Checkmate with the LSSO and love them both. Maybe I wouldn't feel the same had I not had the "inside" experience as a youth. Where your theory fails is that my affection for the 10th is matched by my total dislike of the 21st. Most of the LSSO shared this view, strangley enough. 10 appealed but 21 didn't. I hear nothing in the 8th to inspire. Indeed, I listened to it again 10 minutes ago and and got absolutely nothing out of it despite the advocacy of Groves. Stange, isn't it? The opening to 10 is one of the most gripping ideas in ALL music. It's just brilliant.