Havergal Brian.

Started by Harry, June 09, 2007, 04:36:53 AM

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J.Z. Herrenberg

The point is, I think: CPO is a label that favours Continental European music. Frankel was (iirc) German, too. In Germany British music doesn't have any prestige at all. Adorno castigated Sibelius, but since he died in 1969, Northern Europeans like S. were accepted more and more. There is a lot of attractive Scandinavian music. Also Dutch composers like Roentgen and Badings have been recorded by CPO. But British music is a vast territory the Germans have no serious interest in. I can't blame them, with some of the biggest hitters in history.
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Mirror Image

#841
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 29, 2011, 08:41:37 AM
The point is, I think: CPO is a label that favours Continental European music. Frankel was (iirc) German, too. In Germany British music doesn't have any prestige at all. Adorno castigated Sibelius, but since he died in 1969, Northern Europeans like S. were accepted more and more. There is a lot of attractive Scandinavian music. Also Dutch composers like Roentgen and Badings have been recorded by CPO. But British music is a vast territory the Germans have no serious interest in. I can't blame them, with some of the biggest hitters in history.

If Germans have no serious interest in classical music outside of their own country, what does this say about them? Are they so narrow-minded as a people that they are unwilling to accept other country's music? I don't think this is the case, but more of a case that they think their tradition is the one that matters the most. I happily disagree with this sentiment. Where I'm getting at is CPO, whether it was a Swiss label, a German label, a French label, whatever, I thought their focus was on filling in gaps in neglected composer's music? I mean do they not cater to the specialized market of classical listeners? Brian's music is definitely a specialized area of 20th Century music.

Anyway, British music is neglected because people choose to neglect it for some silly pre-conceived notions that have nothing to do with the music. There has been some amazing music composed in the British Isles. Like I said, I believe a Brian cycle is in order.

J.Z. Herrenberg

I am all for a Brian cycle, but I don't think it will be forthcoming from CPO. A composer like Pettersson, for instance, is seen as a very interesting continuation of the German- Austrian tradition. Of course, Havergal Brian is, too, with even a setting of Goethe's Faust to his credit (in German!) But for one reason or another, Brian's love of German culture has not been reciprocated. There is one German music professor, who has published a big tome on the British symphony and he is a member of the Havergal Brian Society. But so far his influence has been negligible.

Another example: Delius. He was German himself, was played before World War I triumphantly all over Germany. But during and after the war that ended. For decades. Only now interest is growing again, a bit. Delius has had a volume to himself, for example, in the excellent series Musik-Konzepte, which I have read and from which I could deduce that British music is terra incognita in Germany.
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Scarpia

In the end, they need to sell records to stay in business, and they I suspect any label considering a Brian cycle would be very wary after the economic catastrophe of the aborted Naxos cycle, which resulted in very expensive sessions producing recordings that didn't come close to recouping production costs and in some cases could not even be released. 

A British label like Chandos or Hyperion would seem to me to be more likely to undertake something like this, and Hyperion even recorded one of the symphonies.  If that release had been commercially successful, I'm suspect they would have done more. 


Mirror Image

Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 29, 2011, 09:11:06 AMAnother example: Delius. He was German himself, was played before World War I triumphantly all over Germany. But during and after the war that ended. For decades. Only now interest is growing again, a bit. Delius has had a volume to himself, for example, in the excellent series Musik-Konzepte, which I have read and from which I could deduce that British music is terra incognita in Germany.

Don't get me started on Delius! ;) His neglect is completely inexcusable in my opinion. Thankfully, he had many champions: Beecham (who got the ball rolling), Barbirolli, Mackerras, Handley, Hickox, and now Andrew Davis (who has recorded some of his music before for Teldec, which is now on the Warner Apex budget line) and to a lesser degree: Groves, Davies, and Lloyd-Jones. We'll see what happens with this new Davis recording on Chandos.

Scarpia

Quote from: Mirror Image on March 29, 2011, 09:53:52 AM
Don't get me started on Delius! ;) His neglect is completely inexcusable in my opinion. Thankfully, he had many champions: Beecham (who got the ball rolling), Barbirolli, Mackerras, Handley, Hickox, and now Andrew Davis (who has recorded some of his music before for Teldec, which is now on the Warner Apex budget line) and to a lesser degree: Groves, Davies, and Lloyd-Jones. We'll see what happens with this new Davis recording on Chandos.

His major works are all available in excellent recording.  What basis is there for saying he is neglected, and who is it, precisely, whose conduct can't be excused?

Mirror Image

Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on March 29, 2011, 09:57:00 AM
His major works are all available in excellent recording, what basis is there for saying he is neglected?

He's neglected in the concert halls. I already stated that he had many fine champions, which, in turn, means he has had plenty of fine performances on record.

cilgwyn

Cpo have done a bit of Josef Holbrooke though. But maybe he fits in more with their repertory. Holbrooke definately has his own sound world,but with his tone poems and quasi wagnerian opera cycle he's almost an off shoot of their own tradition. Havergal Brian was very interested in German culture and undoubtedly got allot of inspiration from it,but even in a work like 'Das Siegeslied' or 'Faust' the only thing that's German about the music is the fact that it's in German! Holbrooke,eccentric,quirky & original as he is in his own way is essentially a late romantic. Brian on the other hand is much harder to pin down. Janus like,he looks backwards and forwards. Allot of people picking up that Marco Polo cd set of the 'Gothic' want something similair. Instead they get ' Das Siegeslied' and symphonies 17 or 20,which are about as different as the sun and moon! Wonderful for us Brian buffs,but some people aren't so willing to persevere. On the other hand,if you like Holbrooke's 'The Raven' there's a very good chance you'll enjoy his 'Amontillado'.

Scarpia

Apropos of nothing, I just ordered my first recording of a Brian work (the Lyrica release which includes the Cooke Symphony No 3).

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on March 29, 2011, 11:04:32 AM
Apropos of nothing, I just ordered my first recording of a Brian work (the Lyrica release which includes the Cooke Symphony No 3).


I applaud the deed to the echo (to quote Shakespeare, more or less)!
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

cilgwyn

The Cooke symphony has always put me off the Lyrita cd. I'm selfish, just want Brian! I had the original Lp all those long years ago & would have been quite happy with the playing time. On the other hand,you're cd of the Cooke wil probably sound a heck of allot better than my aged off air cassette copy. Indeed,I have even heard tales of people who prefer the Cooke!
  Fortunately, I can re-arrange the 'menu' on a cd-r & live happily ever after.

Scarpia

Quote from: cilgwyn on March 29, 2011, 11:58:00 AM
The Cooke symphony has always put me off the Lyrita cd. I'm selfish, just want Brian! I had the original Lp all those long years ago & would have been quite happy with the playing time. On the other hand,you're cd of the Cooke wil probably sound a heck of allot better than my aged off air cassette copy. Indeed,I have even heard tales of people who prefer the Cooke!
  Fortunately, I can re-arrange the 'menu' on a cd-r & live happily ever after.

I convinced myself to buy it by classifying the Brian Symphonies as fillers on a Cooke disc.  Sorry.   :-\

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on March 29, 2011, 11:59:10 AM
I convinced myself to buy it by classifying the Brian Symphonies as fillers on a Cooke disc.  Sorry.   :-\


Ever the joker.
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

cilgwyn

Sounds like you're glass is always half full 'Scarpia'.

Scarpia

Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 29, 2011, 12:01:47 PM
Ever the joker.

Well, I really wanted the perpetually out-of-print Groves recordings on EMI.

cilgwyn

I was lucky there. I managed get the 'twofer' version,(with No 7),from my dodgy dealer. Now if I could get hold of a copy of the old LSSO Unicorn for at a similarly reasonable price...........

karlhenning

The State of My Own Private Brian Inquiry is: I like what I hear. I need to dig some more into the Gothic, which has registered a stronger impression than the other disc I've heard.

Scarpia

#857
Quote from: Apollon on March 29, 2011, 01:05:01 PM
The State of My Own Private Brian Inquiry is: I like what I hear. I need to dig some more into the Gothic, which has registered a stronger impression than the other disc I've heard.

One thing I know, I never want to hear the "Gothic."  (I can't fathom chorus and orchestra pieces, generally.)   Which is the "other" disc?

John Whitmore

Cilgwyn, I think our friend from Holland may have a link to the Unicorn. If not then I am happy to share.

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: Apollon on March 29, 2011, 01:05:01 PM
The State of My Own Private Brian Inquiry is: I like what I hear. I need to dig some more into the Gothic, which has registered a stronger impression than the other disc I've heard.


You mean with Nos. 17 and 32? Well, the 'Gothic' is the stronger piece. But I like No. 17 in the BBC performance very much, too...
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato