Havergal Brian.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Did you ever read Evangeline Walton's retelling of the Mabinogion (four novels)? Or John Cowper Powys' Porius and Owen Glendower?

[cilgwyn]

I have read the actual 'Mabinogion',but not in Welsh I'm afraid. Unfortunately,while my father's first language is Welsh,my Mother was born in Kent & always spoke to me in HER native tongue. I am not aware of that novelisation. As to John Cowper Powys. I am aware of the Powys brothers and that particular book,although I have to say I find his style of writing a little too 'dense' for my taste. Also,I'm not intellectual enough. If I started it I'd probably still be reading it in twenty years time. Machen's more my cup of tea! I know about Owain Glyndwr of course. My father's a bit of a Welsh Nationalist. Although,I should point out,he just votes for them,he's not into bombs like the IRA was!
(I can sing,pronounce & get the gist of a conversation in Welsh,however).

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I have read the actual 'Mabinogion',but not in Welsh I'm afraid. Unfortunately,while my father's first language is Welsh,my Mother was born in Kent & always spoke to me in HER native tongue. I am not aware of that novelisation. As to John Cowper Powys. I am aware of the Powys brothers and that particular book,although I have to say I find his style of writing a little too 'dense' for my taste. Also,I'm not intellectual enough. If I started it I'd probably still be reading it in twenty years time. Machen's more my cup of tea! I know about Owain Glyndwr of course. My father's a bit of a Welsh Nationalist. Although,I should point out,he just votes for them,he's not into bombs like the IRA was!
(I can sing,pronounce & get the gist of a conversation in Welsh,however).

I've been to Aberystwyth and Caernarvon. Wales is beautiful and I like the sound of the language. I have read Arthur Machen's stories, but that was a long time ago. I should read him again to see what I'd make of him now.

[cilgwyn]

I am currently reading 'The Hill of Dreams' which is supposed to be his masterpiece. Unlike some of his writing it's not an occult novel and has no supernatural basis. It's all in the description of the countryside and the 'hero's' imagination. A product of the 'fin de siecle',some of his writing is a bit wordy or 'purple' by todays standards. 'The Hill of Dreams' has been called the most decadent book in the English language. By whom,I don't know (perhaps you do?). I was pleased to see that the book had been brought back into print by a Welsh publisher with the help of a grant from the Welsh assembly. Hopefully,they might get around to funding some new recordings of our native composers. Daniel Jones and David Wynne are horribly neglected,even in their own country.
As to 'Caernarvon',I'm ashamed to say I've never been there. Not being a great traveller,Wales feels as big as Russia to me! On the other hand,I've been to Aberystwyth loads of times,although not recently. I remember being taken there on a school trip when I was young. The teacher took us to the amusement arcade where we spent our day out gambling on the machines. Seargent Bilko,eat your heart out! I was a bit miffed recently to find out that they'd pulled the place down and replaced it with some boring looking flats (I think). Not that I gamble,but it was a 'childhood memory and the building was 'art deco'. The rotters!

[cilgwyn]

Gambling? Anyone think I'm getting a bit off topic here?!!!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I don't see the connection between Brian and gambling, either...  But Havergal will be returning to this thread, I have no doubt.

[vandermolen]

Here is another great symphony, subtitled 'The Gothic' (from 1940). Oddly enough, although the late romantic style is less idiosyncratic than the Brian, it reminded me of HB's Gothic at times.  Strongly recommended too - this is a moving, memorable and powerful score, as is the accompanying 'In Memoriam'.

[asin]B00000463Y[/asin]

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Thanks, Jeffrey. I had heard of the name, but didn't have any idea about his style.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Here is the link to the map with the Brisbane Gothic.The sound is perfectly acceptable. As for the performance - judge for yourselves. Discussion afterwards...


http://www.mediafire.com/?km7z6cl54mpyv

[cilgwyn]

A visionary,epoch making link. I will investigate it forthwith!
Regarding Frederic Devreese (his son,I believe?). I have his Piano Concerto's. They sound like Prokofiev meets Gershwin in places & in the words of the Frosty's tiger, " They'rrre grrrrreeeat!". I particularly like the Second. The piano playing on the Marco Polo release is marvellous. One of the best attempts at a 'jazzy' concerto, in the Gershwin mould ever,in my opinion. It should be more popular. I have another 2cd set of orchestral works by him. Not deep,maybe,but very enjoyable! A wonderful composer who deserves to be better known.

[cilgwyn]

Can't believe I'm downloading a new professional performance of the Gothic. I'm going to have to pinch myself.

[karlhenning]

FWIW, Paul Cienniwa played movements from Boëllmann's Suite gothique for the prelude and postlude of this morning's service.

[cilgwyn]

Haven't had time to listen to it all the way through,but I definately prefer this performance to the Naxos which I hated! Biggest problem I have had so far is the Judex. The orchestral 'interludes' seem to be taken at an absolute snail pace which to my ears seriously robs them of them of all their usual drama and momentum. Not that the playings bad,and whom am I to criticise,but phew that IS slow,and I always find those parts so thrilling. For once the hairs stayed firmly on the back of my neck!
Hope you don't mind me grumbling like this. I AM grateful to be able to hear this,and it's fascinating to hear another interpretation,at last (!),but phew,that's slow!
Great to hear it again,though,isn't it!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I am listening to the first interlude as I write. To my ears the tempo is the same as in the Boult performance, perhaps even a tad quicker... I must say - I like it that way. The whole Judex is a slowly-building catastrophe, and I like the heaviness. The second interlude is (should be?) quicker and lighter. I'll see what Curro does when I arrive there.


You're entitled to grumble, Cilgwyn. I find most of the soloists not very impressive... And the chorus is sometimes struggling manfully. But all in all, this performance has a character of its own, and there is a lot of orchestral detail I have never heard before. There were several moments I was simply aghast at the power of the music.

[vandermolen]

A visionary,epoch making link. I will investigate it forthwith!
Regarding Frederic Devreese (his son,I believe?). I have his Piano Concerto's. They sound like Prokofiev meets Gershwin in places & in the words of the Frosty's tiger, " They'rrre grrrrreeeat!". I particularly like the Second. The piano playing on the Marco Polo release is marvellous. One of the best attempts at a 'jazzy' concerto, in the Gershwin mould ever,in my opinion. It should be more popular. I have another 2cd set of orchestral works by him. Not deep,maybe,but very enjoyable! A wonderful composer who deserves to be better known.

Thanks - you must investigate Devreese's 'Gothic' without delay - I'm sure you'll like it (and the terrific 'In Memoriam' on the same disc) - if you hear it let us know what you think. Yes, he was the father of Frederic.

After that Zen type diversion I'll return the thread to Havergal Brian. 

[cilgwyn]

If he's as good as his son he's good enough for me! Thank you Vandermolen.

[vandermolen]

If he's as good as his son he's good enough for me! Thank you Vandermolen.

Better I think - but you must check this out with Tony, the Frosties Tiger (that is his name if I recall correctly )

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I agree, Cilgwyn, that the second interlude in its first half is perhaps too slow...

[cilgwyn]

Thank you.The 'second interlude',to be precise. Of course I'm just used to the performances I've heard & for all I know,maybe that's the right way. But it doesn't sound right to me,that's all. I always found this bit so exciting,not that the whole work isn't exciting,but Brian's use of the orchestra here is so thrilling. I feel it gains from being taken at a bit more of 'lick'! (says Mr Know-it-all!!!).
Mind you,if I'd been at the concert I'd feel like a pretty satisfied concert goer on the whole. I'd certainly buy 'the cd' if the performance is ever released in that format.
   On another 'Havergal Brian point'. I was listening to the Mackerras performance of the Second symphony which I used to have on cassette years ago. I remember being very disappointed with the Naxos release. In my opinion,and I'm just a music lover really,it 's the worst performance of a Brian symphony I have ever heard. Anyway,listening to the Mackerras performance was a wholly different experience and reminded me of what a marvellous,atmospheric symphony this is,yet,along with No 7,which is incidentally one of my favourites,it doesn't seem to be appreciated as much as it should,even by some Brian admirers (and I don't mean you). Anyway,not having heard it for a while and in such a good performance,I was struck by the similarity of some parts of it,to the third symphony. Not that it sounds the same,but some of the textures and 'sound world' of the quieter sections sound very similar to parts of the third. In fact,as I often listen on headphones while I am writing or reading,I'm maybe,at times,not listening quite as carefully as I should,and I remember,for one brief moment thinking I WAS actually listening to the third,and then the moment passed,and I realised my mistake. (Incidentally,I listened to the third immeadiately after listening to the third).
Have you ever noticed any similarities yourself?

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Have you ever noticed any similarities yourself?

O, yes! And you can add the Violin Concerto, too, first two movements. They share that very busy and chromatic texture, filled to bursting. Though I have never mistaken the Second for the Third. Both works are very different in feel. No. 2 is darker, 'greyer' to my ears, whilst No. 3 is in brilliant technicolor.