Havergal Brian.

[cilgwyn]

Only momentarily! As I said,I put on the headphones,the music starts playing,I'm engrossed in what I'm doing & suddenly I think,'Hang on,isn't that the 3rd symphony,then a moment later I realise my mistake'. I certainly would never confuse the two if I was giving the music my full attention. But it did make me think. After that I began feeling that in  respect of the texture and the kind of busy,chromatic writing you describe, that the two works did have allot in common,although as you point out,the Second is greyer in texture and perhaps in atmosphere. And yes,now I think of it,the Violin Concerto also bears similarities,(although I really do need to have another listen to it).
  Incidentally,I am thinking of making a cd-r of the Ralph Holmes performance of the Violin Concerto with the Bisengaliev finale added on. As I have told you,a couple of years ago I accidentally,I forget how,taped over the last 2-3 minutes or so of my Dolby copy of the Holmes. You will know from my postings that I prefer this performance,although I am given to understand that Bisengaliev is a technically superior musician & some passages were restored which were cut from the Holmes recording? At any rate,this way I should be able to listen to the 'Holmes' performance,with a little help from Bisengaliev,all the way through!

[Hattoff]

Great, many thanks for putting the Gothic up. It is some time since I last listened to it and what a thrilling work it is. The performance reminds of the, rarely spoken of, Hanley performance, there are a lot of fluffs but something gets through.
I envy those who are going to the prom Gothic, but a word of warning, if you are standing, and the BBC orchestra get it right, be prepared to collapse; it is so powerful live.
To paraphrase a quote from Thomas Hardy used by Holst to describe Egdon Heath which reminds me very much of the Gothic.
'A symphony perfectly accordant with man's nature - neither ghastly, hateful nor ugly; neither commonplace, unmeaning nor tame; but like man, slighted and enduring; and withal singularly colossal and mysterious in its swarthy monotony'

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

That's a well-known (to me, at least) and great quote, Hattoff. I love Hardy. I agree with your 'something gets through' - the spirit of the piece is so strong, it survives any fluffs. I am listening to this performance for the third time now, and it is growing on me. The orchestra is marvellous and Curro's direction is convincing me more and more. Philip Legge, who sang in the chorus, wrote to me this morning about how he experienced the Judex movement. I think his comments might be interesting:


For me, Curro's rendition of the Judex (aside from the opening, alas!) is the strongest reading of it of the three I've heard – I can't compare Schmidt, or the reputed Fairfax or Stokes audience bootlegs that may exist (?). My standout memory of the performance is how Curro elicited from the wind and brass players as large a weight of sheer, massive tone as can be imagined from the orchestral sections onwards – for me this was Rodin's metaphor of Gothic architecture as cruel masses of balanced stone held in tension against one another, being made clearly audible in sound. We had a full complement of the 32 woodwind, if not quite as many of the brass, but all of the various instrumental categories were represented, and they all added to the richness and density of the sound.

Being situated in the chorus, hearing the upper strings (and slightly under-number to Brian's specifications), was alone not ideal: but when the deep, low winds and brass were marching to Curro's beat the effect was reminiscent of the implacable power of ocean waves, steadily rolling forward in deep waters. The final pages of that movement were electric, and with that many players playing at their extreme in the more confined space of the Brisbane concert hall (as opposed to the larger space you'll have at the Royal Albert Hall) the last bars were as energetic and apocalyptic as one could want.

[cilgwyn]

Uh-oh,that's telling me,isn't it! I'll have to change my nick name to 'Nit Picker'! I think I'm just used to the one's I've heard. It will be interesting to see if I am alone in finding his approach to the 'second interlude' incredibly slow. Other than that I think it is a pretty stunning rendition. I particularly love his way with the brass. Also,that wierd 'storm' sequence,which must be so difficult to get perform. How to mantain the momentum without sacrificing the manic intensity of that wild  Witches sabbath that would have knocked Berlioz's metaphorical socks off if some Faustian pact with the devil had given him the chance to hear it (I think he'd have been impressed).
Curro sails through it like a god! 

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

This isn't "kiss-and-tell" material, I don't think. I have never experienced the Gothic live (yet), nor have I ever sung in it. So this first-hand report is too illuminating not to pass on... But I'll tell him. If Philip objects, it's gone.

[cilgwyn]

I've printed Philip's description out,just in case 'it's gone'! (No one else will see it).One of the best descriptions of the impact of hearing the Gothic I've read. It reminds me of the thrill of hearing it for the first time, as a teenager,all those years ago.
And you can't really argue with someone who's been there and sung it,can you!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

This one was good, too...

Because it is so good and atmospheric, I'll give you Karim Elmahmoudi's impression (on Facebook) of the Brisbane Gothic in full. Let it be the last thing to appear on this thread before 2010 ends. 2011 should be another great year for Havergal Brian...

"I recently returned from Brisbane, Australia, where I heard a live performance of Havergal Brian's "Gothic Symphony". This work is the largest symphonic composition - officially recognized by the Guinness Book of Records (1974) as the largest, longest and most technically difficult symphony ever composed, it is widely regarded as the Mount Everest of classical music. The music required about 500-600 performers of great technical and musical skills.

Some quick statistics: It requires 8 fanfare trumpets, 10 percussionists, organ, 4 choirs plus an additional children's choir, 4 extra brass bands, 11 clarinets, 6 timpanists (an orchestra of 180). I auditioned to play one of the trombone parts. Though I wasn't selected, I was invited to attend the rehearsals which I gladly did since this is a work I have been greatly moved by since I first encountered it in its 1989 premiere recording. Plus it was great to make many new friends from Australia and elsewhere around the world.

This was the first time in 30 years since the piece was last performed and only the fifth time in history since its composition in the 1920's. This had to have ranked up in the top two or three live concert events I've ever experienced. The musicianship of the combined orchestras was exceptional and the impact of the performance was a truly shattering experience.

Knowing this work very well, I was concerned if a live performance would be able to capture it given its extreme technical challenges (for example, there are some moments where the choirs are broken down into 32 separate polyphonic parts), but I was thrilled at hearing the tremendous sound of the full collected forces in action! I'm certain this must have registered on the Richter scale somewhere as an earthquake. Along with some delicate moments, the music features some of the most intensely primal moments I have ever heard!

The collage of colors and sounds are so unique – there is a xylophone cadenza in the third movement against unison tubas that was executed extremely well by the performers. The momentum builds and builds with orchestral growls intensifying until the tension is unshakeable and then we hear unison trombone pedal tones blasting a hole in the opposite end of the concert hall.

During the performance, I really enjoyed sitting next to a kind audience member and her young daughter – neither of whom had ever heard of the Gothic Symphony but decided to attend out of curiosity. During the concert they were fully engaged and tremendously enjoyed the whole event and even some of the moments of musical barbarism. It was one of the quietest audiences because they were all so engaged and moved by the performance. Not a peep from anyone even considering this 115 minute work had no intermission. The concert quickly sold out so they opened up the dress rehearsal and that also filled up. The audience was very excited and gave a 10 minute standing ovation. Really, there is nothing I've encountered that is quite like this behemoth of a work."

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Cilgwyn, your dissatisfaction with the tempo of part of the Judex is confirmed by this passage from Malcolm MacDonald's The Symphonies of Havergal Brian: "This second big orchestral interlude is faster, more delicately scored, and lighter in tone than the first."

[cilgwyn]

I'll print that out too! I must admit I was nit picking. I remember watching part of the rehearsal on 'Youtube' before it was taken down (is it back yet? I must look). A liitle while later I read a review of the performance which was quite critical (I forget where. My memory!). I remember thinking.if the rehearsal was that good.
Slower,(with respect to the 'Judex') doesn't mean worse anyhow. Come to think of it,maybe Schmidt (my favourite performance) was too fast! With respect to another massive symphony that's also pretty impressive,but in a different sort of way. Gliere's 'Ilya Murometz'. Fabermann's performance has been cricised for being far too slow,but in my opinion packs oodles more atmosphere and drama via his massive grip on the overall structure of the piece.
I should stop moaning though. I mean,when I finally hear another performance of Tournemire's Sixth symphony (another choral whopper,incidentally) will I just be whinging about the performance being TOO slow?
What really bothered me about the Naxos performance was the way the tempo of the music seem veer from one extreme to another & one of my favourite bit's the xylophone in the 'storm' sequence. What happened? Where did it go? So much of Brian's amazing orchestration seem to disappear or be submerged by the muddy recording. Yet,on the plus side,the choirs were stunning.
I should stop moaning.shouldn't I ? When I finally hear another performance of Tournemire's Sixth symphony (another massive choral whopper,incidentally) will I be just griping on about how slow it is?

[cilgwyn]

Malcolm MacDonald 'agrees' with me. Oh well,maybe I'm not a complete idiot,even if I'm a nit picker!

[cilgwyn]

Love the 'modify' button! You can fine tune a posted masterpiece. It reminds me of Frasier in 'Cheers' reading Dickens to the unimpressed bar customers. A finished post could read like this:
'It was the best of times and the worst of times,it was the age of increased performances of the Gothic,it was the epoch of nit picking about slow readings of the Judex.........'

Maybe not!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

When I finally hear another performance of Tournemire's Sixth symphony (another massive choral whopper,incidentally) will I be just griping on about how slow it is?

Chances are - yes. 

Love the 'modify' button! You can fine tune a posted masterpiece. It reminds me of Frasier in 'Cheers' reading Dickens to the unimpressed bar customers. A finished post could read like this:
'It was the best of times and the worst of times,it was the age of increased performances of the Gothic,it was the epoch of nit picking about slow readings of the Judex.........'

I can hear the slow rotation of a Victorian novelist.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Use of quote officially approved by Philip Legge. 

[Philip Legge]

Hello all!

I have to be a little careful in my choice of my words talking about the Brisbane Gothic, since if I upset the Brisbane team's applecart I'll be sent to the naughty corner and won't be given any dessert.

It is to be hoped the performance will come out soon on CD -- even in compressed 16-bit 22kHz Internet radio the orchestral playing is beautifully detailed, and the big moments clearly suffer from sound compression artifacts that the master would not. I could wish for a little more woodwind and upper strings, but there is so much that is audible in comparison to the muffled echoing acoustic captured by the Naxos disc that it's a little churlish to complain. There are not many orchestral fluffs (the Naxos disc has its share of wrong notes too!) and at one point at Et rege eos one would have liked rather more organ tone.

The choir, as someone put it, struggled manfully (and womanfully and childfully?) with the work, and it shows in the most difficult or exposed passages - so I'll add one or two small qualifications to J.Z.'s quotation. Alas! in relation to the start of Judex does not refer to Curro's interpretation but is strictly in respect of the tuning, which is at times infernal. The choir being mainly amateur voices and stiffened by comparatively few professional voices found the up-to-37-parts division almost beyond them. The choir did not suffer from a loss of pitch, fortunately.

The second interlude is a little slow - I think on the night John may have decided to take it a little slower than in the rehearsals, to bring out the extraordinary amount of detail that is absolutely teeming in that section. There is also a stringendo marked after the big horn tune with castanets and timps, so the slower tempo allows for the much greater quickening of pace at the end of the interlude; Lenárd is faster throughout there, but has no overhead to give much acceleration.

I would write more but I'm away from the computer, and the iPhone keyboard has its limitations!

Cheers Philip

[cilgwyn]

It looks good to me. I can hardly type on a pc keyboard!
Apologies for the ungrateful griping about the judex. Considering that It's a colossal,record breaking sized work & not exactly repertory stuff,I think you all did a pretty marvellous job. I can't wait for the cd.

Regarding Tournemire's Sixth. What'll really make's me moan is when there's nothing to moan about!

[cilgwyn]

A potato printer with letters carved into the bottoms is hi-tech by my standards!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Thanks, Philip, for joining us in this Brianic nook of the universe! I am very grateful for your comments - they bring an unforgettable occasion to life. If you have more words of wisdom, here is the place!

[karlhenning]

Breakfast in the Brianic nook

[cilgwyn]

Please do!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Please do!

It's night down under...