Havergal Brian.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

A correction: the LP with Brian's piano music that predates the CD with Raymond Clarke is the one with Peter Hill, on Cameo Classics.

[cilgwyn]

Ah,that's the one I had. An understandable confusion,I think. Raymond Clarke recorded Ronald Stevenson's Passacaglia on DSCH (Marco Polo). Thus the connection?

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Ah,that's the one I had. An understandable confusion,I think. Raymond Clarke recorded Ronald Stevenson's Passacaglia on DSCH (Marco Polo). Thus the connection?

Perhaps. But your mind is a big mystery to me. 

[cilgwyn]

I'm an enigma.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I'm an enigma.

Re the Double Fugue - I just listened to it again, reading along in the score. The perky first subject has that blasted rhythm, too... Sorry!

[cilgwyn]

Now,I've got to admit I pinched that line from Seinfeld!
You're making me wish I'd hung on to that Lp. I will have to put the cd on my list,but I've allready exceeded my 'quota' for this month. Amongst other purchases,I bought the orginal emi 2cd set of Goodall's recordings of excerpts from Peter Grimes & The Rape of Lucretia. The price of this deleted set has been sky high for ages,but of course,as soon as emi reissued the recordings as part of a 5cd set,the price of the original issue drops spectacularly. It's always the same! Of course,as soon as I had the first recording of 'The Rape of Lucretia',I wanted the cd transfer of the  Britten recording.And so it goes on......................
Anyway,back to Brian!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Now,I've got to admit I pinched that line from Seinfeld!

I love Seinfeld! Which character says it?


And then - back to Brian!

[cilgwyn]

It comes from 'The Mango',when George is sitting in the restaurant with his girlfiend.You know,the one about the Orgasms! She says it to him.
I've got the whole series on dvd. For some reason it was never very popular here. The Beeb put it on at midnight. They said hardly anyone was watching it! If you mention Seinfeld,you just get blank looks,or,at best,'Oh,I think I've heard of it!' I thought it was marvellous.
Anyway,back to Brian!

[Dundonnell]

Oh...Saints preserve us

[cilgwyn]

Ahem,now,what were we saying about Brian's piano music?

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Yes, where were we... I must thank you, cilgwyn, for asking me about Brian's piano music. I have listened to his three fugues several times again today and really like them. Strong stuff.

And now - to bed. It's past 2 AM here...

[cilgwyn]

Glad to help. By the way,I WAS in bed!

[cilgwyn]

Now.I'm confused. I just had a look at the Cameo classics website and there is a cd of the Peter Hill recording pictured there. The 'artwork' on the front is the same as on my old Lp. So the earlier recording is available on cd?

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

It obviously is! I didn't know that...


And neither does the HBS (just checked the discography). Martyn, please update!!


http://www.cameo-classics.com/home.html?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=77&category_id=86


The site is a bit bare and it's not clear how you can pay and if there's any p&p to add...

[cilgwyn]

I notice that Cameo Classics cds don't seem to be listed on any mail order site. The last time I tried,a search of Amazon,brought up a blank?

[Luke]

Re the Double Fugue - I just listened to it again, reading along in the score. The perky first subject has that blasted rhythm, too... Sorry!

It's not the same rhythm as that in the Dowland Fancy though (the latter is lssll and the fugue is sslll, where s = short and l long). Both would adequately represent the rhythm of the name Havergal Brian, as would five equal-value notes or a triplet followed by a duplet, I think....but if he was going to do this surely he would choose only one rhythm? Unless it was a subonscious thing, in which the five syllables of his name have permeated into the music without plan or plot. That is certainly possible.

I strongly agree with your general point, above, about the likelihood of Brian thinking along these sort of lines, given the sort of  tendencies you mention. That's some penetrating and understanding thinking, it seems to me. But my view would be that we're talking here more about a kind of bluff, four-square marchlike rhythm which crops up a lot in Brian's music simply because much of his music (more than is normal) features various species of bluff, four-square march rhythms. The rhythm is very common in music of this sort, no matter the composer (in my head Elgar's Cockaigne is buzzing with its breathless Havergal, Havergal Brian, whilst Britten's YPG fugue has Havergal Brian, Brian Brian, Havergal Brian, Brian Brian, swapping between the sslll and the lssll forms...!)

If there is one rhythm I associate with HB more than any other it is the double-dotted flam sort which opens no 8, for instance. Another march rhythm, yes, but a much more extreme, angular one, disruptive and juddering in a way which sums up Brian in microcosm for me.

[cilgwyn]

Yes,very strange. Googling the cd,brings no outlets. The only site advertising this cd is Cameo's own website. You can usually obtain cds elsewhere.It seems a strange arrangement & probably,not a very lucrative one. I recall the cd of Holbrooke's piano music was around £16. I thought,just buy it cheaper somewhere else,but no else seemed to have it. The reviews of the cd were positive,but there was some criticism of the recording or the piano itself. I thought,okay then,at that price,skip that!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Thanks, Luke, for seriously considering my hypothesis. I waited a long time before airing it, the idea has been with me for two decades... Funny that you mention Symphony No. 8, because I was playing that convulsive opening in my mind today. Yes, it sums up Brian. So does the opening of No. 10, I think - Brian in grand and epic mode. Another quintessential passage is in Gargoyles, when the march really gets under way - that sort of lumbering, menacing, slightly grotesque gait is echt-Brian.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Yes,very strange. Googling the cd,brings no outlets. The only site advertising this cd is Cameo's own website. You can usually obtain cds elsewhere.It seems a strange arrangement & probably,not a very lucrative one. I recall the cd of Holbrooke's piano music was around £16. I thought,just buy it cheaper somewhere else,but no else seemed to have it. The reviews of the cd were positive,but there was some criticism of the recording or the piano itself. I thought,okay then,at that price,skip that!

The Cameo Clasics site is a bit weird. It looks like a shop front with nothing behind it. I can't even find a mail address to contact them (or I'm blind). I really want to have that Peter Hill CD.

[cilgwyn]

Yes,it is a bit wierd. Like a film set with just a front and nothing behind it. A mystery! I also found it annoying that I couldn't seem to find their cds elsewhere. I'm all for supporting small labels,but £16+ was too much for me,even if I quite liked Holbrooke (and I'm sure someone said the piano was a bit 'clangy'). I mean,let's face it,he was a colourful character,but he wasn't Havergal Brian!