Havergal Brian.

[Sergeant Rock]

And the consequences of Brian eating allot of baked beans while composing the Gothic symphony are too awful to think about!

Good god, I hope Andrew Clements isn't reading this thread. He could use that to prove his anti-Brian bias 

Sarge

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I put little bolded headers at the beginning of each section, and noted in the introduction that readers may skip about as desired. The first is a little statement on the future of the symphony, the second is an outline of what happens (for newcomers), the third discusses the performance, the fourth discusses what Hyperion's done for the release, and the fifth is a strongly worded hint to Chandos that they should call Brisbane and license the Curro Gothic.

I like it.

[Sergeant Rock]

I put little bolded headers at the beginning of each section, and noted in the introduction that readers may skip about as desired. The first is a little statement on the future of the symphony, the second is an outline of what happens (for newcomers), the third discusses the performance, the fourth discusses what Hyperion's done for the release, and the fifth is a strongly worded hint to Chandos that they should call Brisbane and license the Curro Gothic.

I heartily approve of your efforts on Brian's account. Good boy 

Sarge

[cilgwyn]

I hope they do. Unfortunately,as far as I can make out,Chandos don't seem to like Brian (Havergal!) that much,as far as I can make out. Posts on their forum were generally rewarded by,what might be described as a polite,or,deafening silence.
I  hope I'm wrong. But in all these years,they haven't recorded much! Perhaps the current resurgence of interest might change their mind?

And,by the way,how ABOUT them Knicks?!!!

[John Whitmore]

You can't beat a bit of banter and jibber jabber. Most of the best musicians I've had any dealings with hate the hand wringing serious, intellectual stuff. They like beer, football, comedians and all the usual things. When it comes to playing the dots properly they are mega serious, of course. It's just a job though at the end of the day. Some people make biscuits for a living or mend cars. Others scrape fiddles in orchestras or replace guttering. Simpson vs Bruckner. I just don't like Bruckner's vertical style of writing. His scores are boring to read. Endless blocks and silences. Predictable. I also found it totally boring to play. Simpson's 9th may be a tribute to Bruckner but it has tremendous forward thrust, logic and momentum. The clarity of the orchestration is preferable to my ears than the thick, dull organ inspired sonics of Anton B. Sorry. Don't like him. Probably never will. Give me Boulez any day. Anyway, I better mention Brian quickly before I get banished. Havergal Brian. There we go, I've mentioned him.

[Dundonnell]

Brian had a brief period, prior to 1914, in which his early orchestral works were played and during which he benefited from patronage and enjoyed the esteem of figures like Elgar and Bantock.

After the First World War Brian entered into an extremely long period of neglect during which he embarked on his huge series of symphonies, wrote operas and so on with no or very little apparent prospect of these works ever being performed. It was only towards the very end of his life that interest in his music was revived, mainly at first through the advocacy of Robert Simpson at the BBC. Brian's philosophical acceptance of this neglect was a reflection both of the man himself and of the decades of neglect he suffered.

There are other composers who enjoyed a period of quite widespread acclaim and, in some cases, were held up as the shining white hopes for British music. Their music was widely performed, played on BBC Radio, written about in both academic textbooks and admired by the critics. In Hugh Wood's chapter on British music in the Penguin Guide to European Music in the Twentieth Century, Revised Edition(1961) the composers written about most extensively and clearly regarded by Wood as the towering figures of their generation are Peter Racine Fricker, Iain Hamilton and Humphrey Searle.

These three composers have almost completely disappeared from public consciousness. Their music is never played, very, very seldom recorded and indeed their names are probably not even known to the younger generation of BBC music producers. It took a German record company, CPO based in Osnabruck, to record all the symphonies of Benjamin Frankel(from a slightly early generation) and Humphrey Searle but there are none of Hamilton symphonies on cd and only one of Fricker's five(in an old recording).

Now these are not "easy composers". Their music is usually dissonant, intellectually taxing, often stretching tonality to its very outer limits or, in the case of both Frankel and Searle, serial in technique. During the 1970s Fricker's music was frequently performed and broadcast on BBC Radio. Searle, while admired and performed, was seldom broadcast. Fricker and Hamilton went off to the USA to take up professorships at American universities. When they returned to Britain they found that their music had become forgotten. Hamilton tried returning to a less abrasive, more 'popular' idiom but it did him little good. All three-to varying degrees-became bitter and resentful at the neglect into which their music had fallen. They had now disappeared into an abyss, from which their music has still not emerged, between the more acceptable 'romanticism' of 'easier' composers and the new avant-garde of younger composers who regarded all three as conservative has-beens.

Arnold, on the other hand, changed direction from the upbeat music of his youth and early middle-age to angry, despairing music which reflected the torments and agonies of his personal life, which was falling to pieces as a consequence of alcohol and resulting mental problems. His music was still played, but less often, and his behaviour made it difficult for orchestral managements, conductors and orchestras to tolerate. In old age his life was rescued, his health partly restored and a renaissance of interest in his music led to a positive plethora of recordings for cd.

There are composers who have the inner strength, the determination, the sheer bloody-mindedness of the creative muse to continue composing whether their music is played or not. There are others who, having once been lauded to the skies, find neglect a bitter pill to swallow.

There............

That was a 'stream of consciousness' little essay on neglect and some fine British composers

[Mirror Image]

Give me Boulez any day.

Give me Koechlin, Debussy, Ravel, Dutilleux, Schmitt, or Pierne over Boulez's nonsense, mathematical exercises any day. It's cool you don't like Bruckner though. He gives many listeners problems. I was one of them at one point, but I can't help but feel a kinship with his music now. It's powerful, gripping stuff.

[Sergeant Rock]

Brian had a brief period, prior to 1914, in which his early orchestral works were played and during which he benefited from patronage and enjoyed the esteem of figures like Elgar and Bantock.

After the First World War Brian entered into an extremely long period of neglect during which he embarked on his huge series of symphonies, wrote operas and so on with no or very little apparent prospect of these works ever being performed. It was only towards the very end of his life that interest in his music was revived, mainly at first through the advocacy of Robert Simpson at the BBC. Brian's philosophical acceptance of this neglect was a reflection both of the man himself and of the decades of neglect he suffered.

There are other composers who enjoyed a period of quite widespread acclaim and, in some cases, were held up as the shining white hopes for British music. Their music was widely performed, played on BBC Radio, written about in both academic textbooks and admired by the critics. In Hugh Wood's chapter on British music in the Penguin Guide to European Music in the Twentieth Century, Revised Edition(1961) the composers written about most extensively and clearly regarded by Wood as the towering figures of their generation are Peter Racine Fricker, Iain Hamilton and Humphrey Searle.

These three composers have almost completely disappeared from public consciousness. Their music is never played, very, very seldom recorded and indeed their names are probably not even known to the younger generation of BBC music producers. It took a German record company, CPO based in Osnabruck, to record all the symphonies of Benjamin Frankel(from a slightly early generation) and Humphrey Searle but there none of Hamilton symphonies are on on cd and only one of Fricker's five(in an old recording).

Now these are not "easy composers". Their music is usually dissonant, intellectually taxing, often stretching tonality to its very outer limits or, in the case of both Frankel and Searle, serial in technique. During the 1970s Fricker's music was frequently performed and broadcast on BBC Radio. Searle, while admired and performed, was seldom broadcast. Fricker and Hamilton went off to the USA to take up professorships at American universities. When they returned to Britain they found that their music had become forgotten. Hamilton tried returning to a less abrasive, more 'popular' idiom but it did him little good. All three-to varying degrees-became bitter and resentful at the neglect into which their music had fallen. They had now disappeared into an abyss, from which their music has still not emerged, between the more acceptable 'romanticism' of 'easier' composers and the new avant-garde of younger composers who regarded all three as conservative has-beens.

Arnold, on the other hand, changed direction from the upbeat music of his youth and early middle-age to angry, despairing music which reflected the torments and agonies of his personal life, which was falling to pieces as a consequence of alcohol and resulting mental problems. His music was still played, but less often, and his behaviour made it difficult for orchestral managements, conductors and orchestras to tolerate. In old age his life was rescued, his health partly restored and a renaissance of interest in his music led to a positive plethora of recordings for cd.

There are composers who have the inner strength, the determination, the sheer bloody-mindedness of the creative muse to continue composing whether their music is played or not. There are others who, having once been lauded to the skies, find neglect a bitter pill to swallow.

There............

That was a 'stream of consciousness' little essay on neglect and some fine British composers

Well, that's all fine, Colin but...what about them Knicks?

Sarge

[cilgwyn]

You're going to have to revive that Koechlin thread MI!

Yeah,what about them,erm,Knicks,Dundonnell?

[Brian]

I hope they do. Unfortunately,as far as I can make out,Chandos don't seem to like Brian (Havergal!) that much,as far as I can make out.

My footnote is based on a whisper several dozen score pages ago that Chandos was in the running for the Proms performance. I don't actually name Chandos in my review - it's a "you know who you are" type nudge!

[John Whitmore]

Well, that's all fine, Colin but...what about them Knicks?

Sarge

What's your garden like?

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

That was a 'stream of consciousness' little essay on neglect and some fine British composers

You must write them more often...


Recognition, fame, acceptance - a tricky subject. Brian may have been bloody-minded enough to persevere, but why does his music still inspire enough enthusiasm in some of the living that he is being performed and recorded (though hardly on the scale one would wish), and Fricker, Hamilton and Searle aren't? Is his music so much better? Or has he been very lucky in some of his eloquent advocates?


Not questions that can be answered quickly and easily during a Saturday night...

[Sergeant Rock]

Simpson's 9th may be a tribute to Bruckner but it has tremendous forward thrust, logic and momentum.

Which is what I hear in Bruckner...but of course, at half the usual speed of anyone else    One needs, above all, patience to appreciate Bruckner.

I empathize with you as a musican though. I doubt Bruckner is fun to play...and probably hellish for the brass.

Sarge

[Mirror Image]

You're going to have to revive that Koechlin thread MI!

I definitely will, cilgwyn once I've been given some more news in regards to the new Holliger/Hanssler recording that comes out some time this year. Rumor has it that this new disc is going to feature Koechlin orchestrations in addition to his own original compositions. I really hope the series continues because there's so much music that hasn't even been recorded yet.

[cilgwyn]

I typed this reply to MI,a bit late!

Indeed! Koechlin's like a French equivalent to Brian. Like Brian there is a lot of variety in his music,it is very original (yet approachable) & he is,for all kinds of reasons (his interests,preoccupations) a very interesting person to talk about.

[Sergeant Rock]

What's your garden like?

A literal jungle...so I appreciate a thread that grows untended and unsupervised. I gave up "grooming" my property about ten years ago. I live in Germany, that hotbed of order and discipline, but, surprisingly, I've had no visits yet from the Ordnungsamt, or complaints from the neighbors. The birds and hedgehogs love my wild garden 

Sarge

[Mirror Image]

I empathize with you as a musican though. I doubt Bruckner is fun to play...and probably hellish for the brass.

I've spoken with a trumpet player in the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra and he said Bruckner was one of his least favorite composers to play. Not because the music is bad, mind you, but because of the endurance that is required in order to perform it. I bet the third movement from the 9th is really tough on them.

[John Whitmore]

Brian had a brief period, prior to 1914, in which his early orchestral works were played and during which he benefited from patronage and enjoyed the esteem of figures like Elgar and Bantock.

After the First World War Brian entered into an extremely long period of neglect during which he embarked on his huge series of symphonies, wrote operas and so on with no or very little apparent prospect of these works ever being performed. It was only towards the very end of his life that interest in his music was revived, mainly at first through the advocacy of Robert Simpson at the BBC. Brian's philosophical acceptance of this neglect was a reflection both of the man himself and of the decades of neglect he suffered.

There are other composers who enjoyed a period of quite widespread acclaim and, in some cases, were held up as the shining white hopes for British music. Their music was widely performed, played on BBC Radio, written about in both academic textbooks and admired by the critics. In Hugh Wood's chapter on British music in the Penguin Guide to European Music in the Twentieth Century, Revised Edition(1961) the composers written about most extensively and clearly regarded by Wood as the towering figures of their generation are Peter Racine Fricker, Iain Hamilton and Humphrey Searle.

These three composers have almost completely disappeared from public consciousness. Their music is never played, very, very seldom recorded and indeed their names are probably not even known to the younger generation of BBC music producers. It took a German record company, CPO based in Osnabruck, to record all the symphonies of Benjamin Frankel(from a slightly early generation) and Humphrey Searle but there are none of Hamilton symphonies on cd and only one of Fricker's five(in an old recording).

Now these are not "easy composers". Their music is usually dissonant, intellectually taxing, often stretching tonality to its very outer limits or, in the case of both Frankel and Searle, serial in technique. During the 1970s Fricker's music was frequently performed and broadcast on BBC Radio. Searle, while admired and performed, was seldom broadcast. Fricker and Hamilton went off to the USA to take up professorships at American universities. When they returned to Britain they found that their music had become forgotten. Hamilton tried returning to a less abrasive, more 'popular' idiom but it did him little good. All three-to varying degrees-became bitter and resentful at the neglect into which their music had fallen. They had now disappeared into an abyss, from which their music has still not emerged, between the more acceptable 'romanticism' of 'easier' composers and the new avant-garde of younger composers who regarded all three as conservative has-beens.

Arnold, on the other hand, changed direction from the upbeat music of his youth and early middle-age to angry, despairing music which reflected the torments and agonies of his personal life, which was falling to pieces as a consequence of alcohol and resulting mental problems. His music was still played, but less often, and his behaviour made it difficult for orchestral managements, conductors and orchestras to tolerate. In old age his life was rescued, his health partly restored and a renaissance of interest in his music led to a positive plethora of recordings for cd.

There are composers who have the inner strength, the determination, the sheer bloody-mindedness of the creative muse to continue composing whether their music is played or not. There are others who, having once been lauded to the skies, find neglect a bitter pill to swallow.

There............

That was a 'stream of consciousness' little essay on neglect and some fine British composers

I would certainly recommend the Frankel symphonies. Clarity personified. Beware the CPO boxy recording quality and poor orchestral playing but I doubt whether we will hear these again on other labels so snap them up. Malcolm Arnold - the snobs never forgave him for writing immaculately crafted film music. A consumate professional. Andre Previn had the same stuff thrown at him when he got the LSO job. Tarnished by Hollywood and all that. What tosh we have to put up with from so called intellectuals who probably can't read or write or play a single bar of music. Oops, I'm starting to talk about Anton again

[cilgwyn]

I typed this reply a little too late!
Indeed! Koechlin's like a French equivalent to Brian. Like Brian there is a lot of variety in his music,it is very original (yet approachable) & he is,for all kinds of reasons (his interests,preoccupations) a very interesting person to discuss!

Andre Previn? I rather like his Violin Concerto. Like Korngold,but with more meat!

[Dundonnell]

You must write them more often...


Recognition, fame, acceptance - a tricky subject. Brian may have been bloody-minded enough to persevere, but why does his music still inspire enough enthusiasm in some of the living that he is being performed and recorded (though hardly on the scale one would wish), and Fricker, Hamilton and Searle aren't? Is his music so much better? Or has he been very lucky in some of his eloquent advocates?


Not questions that can be answered quickly and easily during a Saturday night...

Thank you, Johan

You-at least- appreciate a 'stream of consciousness' essay Others want to talk about Knicks and gardens I don't know what "Knicks" are(and I am not going to scroll back to find out ) and I live in a flat and don't have a garden

As for Bruckner and Simpson.....oh, I am not sure I can be bothered If John doesn't like Bruckner so be it. I don't like Rachmaninov or Delius or York Bowen, I am not too keen on Debussy or later Stravinsky or Schoenberg etc etc. So what

With both Bruckner and Simpson...yes, here I go ...I feel that I am starting out on a musical journey, a journey coloured and infused with rich orchestral grandeur, that there will be passages of glorious sounding music with those distinctive, imposing brass chorales which will raise the hackles on my neck and fill me with an almost orgasmic pleasure and delight and a journey which will culminate in my arrival at a destination of spiritual exhaustion and fulfillment.


.....but, Hey, that's just me We all get something different from music