Havergal Brian.

[cilgwyn]

Das Siegeslied followed by some nice,soothing Jon Leifs!
(Incidentally,Leifs Saga Symphony would be great fun at the Proms. I've got the BIS Saga cd,somewhere.Must dig it out! Another great original! Although,John MAY disagree?!!!
Still waiting for the MM book. The cheque got sent off on Tuesday afternoon. MM is VERY persuasive. After reading his description of Das Siegeslied I may end up with the Poole on repeat. Although,I think I'll probably jump to No 3,for starters,persuasion or not! I LOVE that symphony!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Still waiting for the MM book. The cheque got sent off on Tuesday afternoon. MM is VERY persuasive.

He is. Anyone with an open mind must get hooked on Brian by just reading his descriptions (as I was). And the great thing is - he 'oversells' the qualities of the symphonies in only a few cases. But remember - he wrote vol. 1 when he was in his early twenties. In most cases I still can't fault his evaluations. Where I differ - I don't think the first movement of No. 2 is all that good, the main theme is too amorphous; I don't consider 'Das Siegeslied' Brian's greatest symphony (don't ask if one of the 32 actually is!); the 'storm' passage in No. 10 isn't very stormy, but more of a rather stylised eruption.

[cilgwyn]

I do disagree with John on some points regarding Das Siegeslied. I think there is good music there. The slow movement is marvellous in the Poole recording & that final surge of power at the end is very exciting,although obviously a relief to John! I remember the C90 cassette I listened to for years & still have (and it STILL plays!) had the 'side turn' just before that. A bit annoying! My copies of the Schmidt Gothic used to end up on C120's to avoid too many side turns,even though they told us NOT to use them. No wonder they're gone!
No 2 isn't up there with the best,I suppose,BUT I think allot of the problems I have with the symphony are the lack of a really first class recording in really good state of the art sound. There is a haunting,phantasmagorical quality (for want of a better word!) to much of it,which really does stay in the mind,although unlike the kaleidescopic third,there are passages where Brians inspiration seems to run a little thin. Yet,I think this is a symphony that COULD have a powerful impact. I wish Dutton or some other label would have a go! And WHY NOT No5? Grrr! If only I had a record label!
Agree with you about No 10. 'Stylised' is just the right term. And,it really is more of a 'psychological' storm than an Alpine one! The old LSSO performance really rules here,Okay (as they say!).

[John Whitmore]

Das Siegeslied followed by some nice,soothing Jon Leifs!
(Incidentally,Leifs Saga Symphony would be great fun at the Proms. I've got the BIS Saga cd,somewhere.Must dig it out! Another great original! Although,John MAY disagree?!!!
Still waiting for the MM book. The cheque got sent off on Tuesday afternoon. MM is VERY persuasive. After reading his description of Das Siegeslied I may end up with the Poole on repeat. Although,I think I'll probably jump to No 3,for starters,persuasion or not! I LOVE that symphony!

Never heard the work or anything by this composer. What's it sound like in terms of its general style? Gizza clue. I am, of course assuming that the John you mention is in fact me.

[John Whitmore]

He is. Anyone with an open mind must get hooked on Brian by just reading his descriptions (as I was). And the great thing is - he 'oversells' the qualities of the symphonies in only a few cases. But remember - he wrote vol. 1 when he was in his early twenties. In most cases I still can't fault his evaluations. Where I differ - I don't think the first movement of No. 2 is all that good, the main theme is too amorphous; I don't consider 'Das Siegeslied' Brian's greatest symphony (don't ask if one of the 32 actually is!); the 'storm' passage in No. 10 isn't very stormy, but more of a rather stylised eruption.

We are in total agreement on the Siegeslied. It's in my short list for being his worst. For a real storm go to Dick Strauss, not HB. Stylised eruption is a rather good description. Maybe you should take up writing.

[cilgwyn]

Dundonnell's quotation from the Penguin guide to Choral music reminded me of another bit of writing that got my young mind going,all those years ago. Hard to find nice s/h copies now.We used to have lots of nice bookshops,now they're all boring chain stores.Every ones's the same,just a bit bigger or smaller. Gone are the life changing,suprise finds of 'yesteryore!'
The liner notes with my Lp's of the marvellous Forlane set were another one. It set my imagination racing,all those allusions to huge,ambitious,exciting sounding music! And as if that wasn't enough,another mysterious personage called John Foulds. And I must not forget Hubert parry.His Symphony No 3,full of bracing tunes & sweeping melodies. It's still my favourite Parry symphony!
What an inspired record issue that was!

[cilgwyn]

We are in total agreement on the Siegeslied. It's in my short list for being his worst. For a real storm go to Dick Strauss, not HB. Stylised eruption is a rather good description. Maybe you should take up writing.

I may be wrong,but I THINK Johan HAS (taken up writing)!!!!
I mentioned Jon Leifs because he's,erm,VERY loud! Often!!!!
Icelandic,actually. Anvils & giant rocks being bashed are pretty routine!
Johan knows his work,too.

[cilgwyn]

He was a loner like Langgaard who did what HE wanted to do! Also,like Langgaard,he rubbed all his countrymen up the wrong way,but for slightly different reasons,perhaps not all his fault. He treats some very unusual,percussive instruments almost as if they are a routine part of an orchestra,rather than exotic intrusions. I think he's (was) quite clever at it. I would say the Saga Symphony is a more subtle work than Das Siegeslied. At least,I hope so? A 'mad' masterpiece possibly? It nearly gave my mum a heart attack,when I played it to her!

[John Whitmore]

I do disagree with John on some points regarding Das Siegeslied. I think there is good music there. The slow movement is marvellous in the Poole recording & that final surge of power at the end is very exciting,although obviously a relief to John! I remember the C90 cassette I listened to for years & still have (and it STILL plays!) had the 'side turn' just before that. A bit annoying! My copies of the Schmidt Gothic used to end up on C120's to avoid too many side turns,even though they told us NOT to use them. No wonder they're gone!
No 2 isn't up there with the best,I suppose,BUT I think allot of the problems I have with the symphony are the lack of a really first class recording in really good state of the art sound. There is a haunting,phantasmagorical quality (for want of a better word!) to much of it,which really does stay in the mind,although unlike the kaleidescopic third,there are passages where Brians inspiration seems to run a little thin. Yet,I think this is a symphony that COULD have a powerful impact. I wish Dutton or some other label would have a go! And WHY NOT No5? Grrr! If only I had a record label!
Agree with you about No 10. 'Stylised' is just the right term. And,it really is more of a 'psychological' storm than an Alpine one! The old LSSO performance really rules here,Okay (as they say!).

This really opens up a huge can of worms/potential discussion thread. My favourite Elgar fiddle concerto recordings are by Sammons and Menuhin, both from 78s. The sound is of no consequence because it's a great work and played wonderfully well in both versions. Great music is great music. Poor sound quality is something you can learn to listen through. Don't get me wrong, I would love a stereo top class sounding version of the Sammons but it can't happen. I've listened to the recording of HB 2 on Naxos and it's not just the sound. The playing isn't very good is it? Here's the rub - does a great work transcend poor recording quality and poor standards of performance? In my view, great music is great music. It's good to hear music beautifully played in good sound but is a masterpiece such as Bruckner 7 (cough) somehow less of a masterpiece if it's recorded by a poor provincial orchestra in bad sound? My view is no. I once heard the Halle doing Shostakovitch 5 with Arvid Yansons in De Montfort Hall and it was just shocking. A disaster. Panned by the critics. The same forces repeated this at the Festival Hall two nights later - immaculate and great reviews. The stature of the work hadn't miraculously changed in 2 days though, had it? Same dots on the page. Same man with the same stick. My point - either Brian 2 is a great work, good work, mediocre work or terrible work. I don't see that performance or recording standards have much to do with it. So there.

[John Whitmore]

I may be wrong,but I THINK Johan HAS (taken up writing)!!!! I mentioned Jon Leifs because he's,erm,VERY loud! Often!!!!
Icelandic,actually. Anvils & giant rocks being bashed are pretty routine!
Johan knows his work,too.

Irony old chap, irony From your description I think Leifs is a bit too subtle for me.

[mahler10th]

I may be wrong,but I THINK Johan HAS (taken up writing)!!!!
I mentioned Jon Leifs because he's,erm,VERY loud! Often!!!!
Icelandic,actually. Anvils & giant rocks being bashed are pretty routine!
Johan knows his work,too.

One of Leifs favourite subjects is...the music of volcanoes!   He is rather good at it. 

[John Whitmore]

Scots John. The artist formerly known as John of Clydebank. Like it.

[cilgwyn]

A very interesting & GOOD point! I was just trying to defend it to be honest. I don't think even the greatest orchestra or conductor would ever make it sound THAT good,which it isn't. But there are some passages I like. But,aherm,wait a minute,when did I last even put it on?!!!
An example that springs to mind,is of the Classico recording of York Bowen's Second Symphony. I personally don't care for Yorkie Bowen,and in my humble opinion,his Second Symphony sounded just as crummy in the Chandos recording,which everyone seemed to rave about.
Though,in the case of Shostakovich's Fifth,there are allot of recordings & a well established tradition of performances,so you're not just at the mercy of one lousy performance or recording.
But if you put a fantastic performance of Das Siegeslied alongside a lousy rendition of 'Belshazzar's Feast',I don't think anyone would have any problem deciding which was the greater work!

PS: I have a 1924 recording of Bruckner's Seventh,by Oskar Fried,you might like!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Stylised eruption is a rather good description. Maybe you should take up writing.

Yes, I should. ;-)

As for 'stylised eruptions', there are more of them in the Brian symphonic canon - Symphony No. 7 (two of them), Symphony No. 30 and 31 spring to mind.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

A few disparate remarks:

I don't mind old recordings either. And Sammons is top of the list for me, too, in the Elgar Violin Concerto (the Delius, too...)

I always think of Brian 2 as a chained giant. There are passages of great beauty and power, but Brian can't 'let rip', it seems to me. The final movement is a case in point - it has a certain grandeur, but Brian chose to punctuate the thing by a Götterdämmerung-like motif, which robs the music of its flow.

I like Leifs, though not too often. But the Saga Symphony and a piece like Hekla are very very strong.

[Sergeant Rock]

My point - either Brian 2 is a great work, good work, mediocre work or terrible work. I don't see that performance or recording standards have much to do with it. So there.

I believe that absolutely. Which is why I never dis, for example, the Marco Polo/Naxos Brian recordings like a certain Welshman (who I won't name  ) does.  I like the symphonies, enjoy the recordings, despite the mediocre sound and/or poor performances.

Sarge

[cilgwyn]

I think I tend to agree with a bit of what Johan says & a bit of what John says! Whatever their meririts (or lack of them?),I must admit they're not at the top of my list of Brian symphonies I'd choose to put on. But I'd rather listen to No 2 than No 4. Also,MM's description of Das Siegeslied is more consistently inspired than the actual symphony itself! Unlike the symphony,itself,I can hardly wait to reaquaint myself with it!

As to shoddy performances and recordings. Well.that's okay,for Shostakovich No 4. Yes,it's still a masterpiece,nothing can change that;but if you hadn't heard it before or had no other way of hearing it,a shoddy performance might colour you're reaction to it. As to recording quality;having a collection of early electrical and acoustic recordings of orchestral works I would be the first person to agree that this should in no way hinder the impact of a truly great work. The previously mentioned Fried account of Bruckner's Seventh,not to mention Nikisch's Beethoven Fifth are all pretty powerful readings. On the other hand,the Marco Polo recording of Bantock's Hebridean Symphony was an apalling way to encounter the work for the very first time,NOT so much because of the 'boxy' sounding recording,but because the horns didn't come out,you could hardly hear them.The clans might as well have been farting! (Perhaps they were? )This is a crucial climax in that particular work and it completely destroyed the impact!
I write this as someone who quite likes Bantock,but doesn't play his music THAT much!

NB: What about them 'nicks' (?),Sarge?!!!

[Dundonnell]

Great Music is Great Music regardless of sound quality.

Having, as a child (sub 12) grown up with 78s I can testify to the impression that recordings which were quite execrable had on me.

I have an old Melodyia LP-which weighs a ton- of Mravinsky and the Leningrad Phil. doing Wagner's Overture to "Tannhauser". The sound is absolutely ghastly, the performance is incandescent with a burning passion, a driven intensity and a quite glorious sense of the music's power and majesty which I have NEVER heard bettered

[Dundonnell]

.....and if you think that Malcolm MacDonald's writing is both evocative and inspiring........

...just imagine what it was like spending almost all of my time in his company from the age of 14 to 18 and receiving one lengthy letter per week from him for four years when he was in Cambridge

[Karl Henning]

Great Music is Great Music regardless of sound quality.

Yes, but poor sound quality is poor regardless of the greatness of the music : )