Havergal Brian.

[Florestan]

I listened to real music before I listened to Romantic music so never got a taste for the latter. One of the earliest records I bought was Bruckner 7, and after that, what do you make of Brahms and all the other fluff? To prefer that sort of music is like someone splashing around in the kitchen sink when they could go and watch the ocean.

Bruckner is Romantic. And what do you make of people who actually love Brahms and all other fluff? According to you, they're just clueless about real music. Not very nice of you, Mr. Calyptorhynchus. Ridiculing other people's tastes in your 4th post is not the best way to make friends here. Just saying...

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Bruckner is Romantic. And what do you make of people who actually love Brahms and all other fluff? According to you, they're just clueless about real music. Not very nice of you, Mr. Calyptorhynchus. Ridiculing other people's tastes in your 4th post is not the best way to make friends here. Just saying...

We already have John the Inveterate Brucknerhater on this thread...  I don't think the reputation of either Brahms or Bruckner will be in any way affected by the dislike of a GMG'er. The more interesting question to me is: how Calyptorhynchus can consider Brahms' music 'fluff'! It doesn't have epic grandeur, but it isn't 'fluff', either!

[cilgwyn]

Talking about the unloved (or fluff?!!!)! I dug the old Tjeknavorian Khatchaturian recordings of Khatchaturian's Gayaneh (RCA) & the ASV First symphony out of a box a few days ago. Used to love them when I was a youngster (albeit,Tjeknavorian's 1st on RCA). Not so wild about therm these days! Although,the playing on the,so called,'complete' recording of Gayaneh is,admittedly,stunning!

Maybe,I'll settle for Brian's third,instead,or some early Diana Krall!

As to Brahms. I'm not a big fan,but he was a pretty influential composer for a 'bit of fluff'!!!!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I love Brahms, his chamber music, symphonies, Alto Rhapsody, concertos, songs, the lot. Btw, the opening of Symphony No. 1 _is_ epic...

[John Whitmore]

You have to join first, John. Only then is it possible to download...


http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php

Just done it. Many thanks.

[John Whitmore]

Hi everyone

Thanks for the links, I have downloaded them and bought and downloaded the second LSSO disk restoration. Three new HB symphonies to listen to, what a treat! pity I have to work today.

Also investigating the Unsung composers site.

Even though I'm in Australia I didn't go to the Brisbane Gothic firstly because I couldn't afford to (I have other expensive hobbies like birdwatching and children) and secondly because I don't actually like orchestral concerts. I find them distracting and the sound is never as good as a recording :-) I grew up listening to records and the radio and have only ever been to a few concerts and found them too expensive and not very satisfying.

My musical tastes were thoroughly conditioned by the fact that I started listening to BBC Radio 3 (in the UK, I moved to Aus in the 1990s) in about 1978, just when Robert Simpson was in full flight with talks on Bruckner and Nielsen and so I lapped these up and then when Hyperion started releasing disks of the Simpson Symphonies and String Quartets in the late 80s and early 90s I was in heaven. I listened to real music before I listened to Romantic music so never got a taste for the latter. One of the earliest records I bought was Bruckner 7, and after that, what do you make of Brahms and all the other fluff? To prefer that sort of music is like someone splashing around in the kitchen sink when they could go and watch the ocean.

I had a similar experience  recently when I bought the CPO Pettersson series. I'd read about these symphonies, about how they were harsh and difficult and unapproachable, and when I listened to them I thought "what's all the fuss about, this is 10/10 music, but there's nothing difficult about it, it's just real music, only people who have never heard real music would have problems with it."

Same with Brian, as soon as I heard the English Suite No.5 and other works I knew, here was a real composer, his music was not so much "music", as life and experience and thought (and good experience and thought) embodied in music.

One of my bugbears in Australia is the Government-run Classic FM station, I think that this is modelled on the UK station of the same name.
About a decade ago I was speaking to a musically-knowledgeable person who opined that 'Classic FM concentrates largely on C19 orchestral and vocal schmalz'. At the time I agreed with him on this, but now would probably modify his view and say that Classic FM these days mainly concentrates on C19 orchestral and vocal schmalz, but also seeks out musical schmalz of all ages. So, for example, Classic FM now plays a lot of baroque operatic arias and 'world music' (which to me sounds like music that isn't good enough to be folk music). How they manage to find bad Baroque music is beyond me, but they do.

I think that if it played good music it could attract many more people to classical music and could make people's lives happier. As it is it seems its only function is to cement in the minds of its listeners a particular type of sentimentality. I have tried to be a thorn in the side of Classic FM for some time.

:-)

Anyway, sorry to have mentioned Bruckner, other composers I like: Lute Music (Renaissance and later, Da Milano , Dowland, Weiss, Gaultier, de Visee &c), viol music (English school (consorts), French School, St Colombe &c), Medieval and Renaissance polyphony, Bach, Bartok, Byrd, Dittersdorf, Dunstaple, Finzi, Haydn, Holmboe, Howells, Ives, Janacek, Mahler, David Matthews, Moeran, Mozart, Norgard, Purcell, Rautaavara, Saygun, Sculthorpe, Sibelius, Tippett, Vanhal, Vaughan Williams, Walton and many others.

Calyptorhynchus is the genus name for the Black-Cockatoos.

cheers all

Well that's very interesting stuff. Taking some of your points in turn:
1) Get the Brian 10/21 download as well. Outshines the official CD by some distance.
2) Live orchestral sound is head and shoulders above recorded sound. I've yet to hear any recording that gets anywhere near the real thing. Having said that I'm not keen on concerts. My preference for recordings is twofold. Firstly the lack of noisy stupid people in the audience; secondly you aren't trapped - I like to move around, have a cup of tea etc. I'm not into sitting down in silence listening to a whole work through. I'm more likely to play the first 5 mins of, say, Nielsen 2 from the 8 versions I possess.
3) My favourite set of symphonies is Nielsen's - tuneful, masterly orchestration, craftsmanlike, inspiring, original etc etc etc.
4) I admire Simpson's work and his complete symphonies on Hyperion are superb. Epic craftsmanship, lots of forward momentum.
5) Brahms is one of the greats. The trouble with his orchestral work is that it's very middle and bottom heavy so in the wrong hands it sounds dull and thick. I personally put the last movement of Brahms 4 in my top 20 list of symphonic movements.
6) Bruckner. No comment.
7) There is no point 7.

[John Whitmore]

We already have John the Inveterate Brucknerhater on this thread...  I don't think the reputation of either Brahms or Bruckner will be in any way affected by the dislike of a GMG'er. The more interesting question to me is: how Calyptorhynchus can consider Brahms' music 'fluff'! It doesn't have epic grandeur, but it isn't 'fluff', either!

Johan. You are a very naughty boy. Last movement of Brahms 4, opening of Brahms 1st Piano Concerto, 1st movement of the fiddle concerto, Alto Rhapsody. Epic, matey, epic.

[John Whitmore]

Talking about the unloved (or fluff?!!!)! I dug the old Tjeknavorian Khatchaturian recordings of Khatchaturian's Gayaneh (RCA) & the ASV First symphony out of a box a few days ago. Used to love them when I was a youngster (albeit,Tjeknavorian's 1st on RCA). Not so wild about therm these days! Although,the playing on the,so called,'complete' recording of Gayaneh is,admittedly,stunning!

Maybe,I'll settle for Brian's third,instead,or some early Diana Krall!

As to Brahms. I'm not a big fan,but he was a pretty influential composer for a 'bit of fluff'!!!!

That's my boy!!!!!!!!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Johan. You are a very naughty boy. Last movement of Brahms 4, opening of Brahms 1st Piano Concerto, 1st movement of the fiddle concerto, Alto Rhapsody. Epic, matey, epic.

I'd say dramatic and tragic. ('Matey' reminds me of Inspector Morse, he was called that when he was told off by his superior.) For 'epic' you need a large time-scale and something suggestive of great spaces, whether visual or mental. I really think only the opening of the First fits the bill. I remember that I was blown away when I heard it for the very first time, age 15.

[cilgwyn]

"Not so wild about THERM,these days!'
It all came out! Khatchaturian is a 'THERM'!
What happened to my multiple edits?

Must have another listen to the Brahms symphonies. I remember nearly wearing out the library Lp box set (metaphorcally speaking),when I was a youngster,I played it so much. I Agree totally about the beginning of his 1st & the final movement of No4. It's up there with the 'transition'  (remember I'm just a listener!) in the Gothic.You know it? Between the 3rd & 4th movements. It has that 'epochal' feel about it,that makes you're spine tingle. 'Awesome',as some teenagers might say!!!

York Bowen's Second is another one!

[John Whitmore]

I'd say dramatic and tragic. ('Matey' reminds me of Inspector Morse, he was called that when he was told off by his superior.) For 'epic' you need a large time-scale and something suggestive of great spaces, whether visual or mental. I really think only the opening of the First fits the bill. I remember that I was blown away when I heard it for the very first time, age 15.

Quite apt then do you think?

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Yes, Master.


* prostrates himself *

[hbswebmaster]

I played the timpani in both the Brahms first and second symphonies about ten years ago. The beginning of the first really is epic, sitting behind a set of those dudes.

[John Whitmore]

I played the timpani in both the Brahms first and second symphonies about ten years ago. The beginning of the first really is epic, sitting behind a set of those dudes.

Are you in the Nigel Thomas class  I got the shock of my life when I saw the violin part for Brahms 1. I've always liked the piece but couldn't believe where the bar lines in the 1st movement were when I saw it. Couldn't play the damn thing cos I couldn't get the way I thought it supposed to go out of my mind. Had to ignore the conductor. Exactly the same in the 2nd movement of Brahms 2 - the cello theme. I didn't realise for years that the timps at the beginning of Zarathustra were triplets. I don't like it as much now that I know! Strange how the dots are written sometimes. 

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Brahms is a master of rhythm. His subtlety in that area is enormous. When you look at a score of his it is riddled with hemiolas.

[Luke]

You can get a pill for that. Maybe it was something from his misspent youth working down the docks....

Johan, don't you think that the finale of Brahms' Fourth is epic. And not just in its mightier moments. That wonderfully lambent, glowingly mournful central flute solo has a Grecian quality, a kind of ancient classic-Attic poise which actually reminds me strongly - now I think of it - of more than a few moments in Brian.

[Luke]

Dodgy joking aside, you are of course right about the complexsity and density of Brahms' rhythmical writing He is similar but qualitatively different to Schumann in this respect - less willful and capricious, but just as intricate. Examples about, but some of the most complex are found in the solo piano music, especially the later sets of short pieces from op 76 onwards. There's a C sharp minor one in there which is just incredible in its sophistication. Anyway, we all know this...

Closing another small circle Malcolm Macdonald's Brahms book is, of course, a gem. As in his Brian books, the man turns a phrase and finds an image like few other writers on music. Swafford's book has more meat (though not much) but MM's is th one which sticks in the mind and the soul, I think.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Johan, don't you think that the finale of Brahms' Fourth is epic. And not just in its mightier moments. That wonderfully lambent, glowingly mournful central flute solo has a Grecian quality, a kind of ancient classic-Attic poise which actually reminds me strongly - now I think of it - of more than a few moments in Brian.

Hm. Well, I love that movement, of course. It's one of the greatest in the whole of symphonic literature, a perfect blend of form and emotion. That flute solo, by the way, is always taken too slowly, as Erich Leinsdorf rightly says in his book about conducting, The Composer's Advocate. There is no rallentando anywhere near it, but every conductor slows down for that supreme elegiac passage. But - epic? Why I prefer tragic and dramatic to epic is because of the pervasive humanity of Brahms' music. With epic I associate something very wide and deep, that includes the inhuman, the impersonal, the divine, the weird even. The opening of Brahms' First has all the inexorabilty of Fate itself - epic. But the work as a whole isn't.


P.S. I liked your joke about those terrible hemiolas...

[Luke]

But - epic? Why I prefer tragic and dramatic to epic is because of the pervasive humanity of Brahms' music. With epic I associate something very wide and deep, that includes the inhuman, the impersonal, the divine, the weird even.

I agre - but those adjective describe better than I did precisely how I hear that flute solo: it's exactly why I think of this moment as epic. It has this otherworldly quality, almost as if it is an ancient, divine voice (to use your word). And certainly I think there is something weird about that glowing, intense sonority.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I agre - but those adjective describe better than I did precisely how I hear that flute solo: it's exactly why I think of this moment as epic. It has this otherworldly quality, almost as if it is an ancient, divine voice (to use your word). And certainly I think there is something weird about that glowing, intense sonority.

I'll give it some more thought. It is a transcendent moment.