Havergal Brian.

[calyptorhynchus]

More notes from middle Brian.

Finding Symphony No.19 a real delight. As MM says, the curious thing about this work is that most of the music in this symphony is in the major. I think my ideal next Brian CD would be very good performances of the symphonies 22, 23 and 24, plus 19. That should open a few eyes!

Someone mentioned a break after No.17, and said that after this work Brian's music never sounds the same again. I couldn't pick this listening to them in ascending order, but noted it coming down. I think it has to do with the symphonies up to and including 17 having longer melodic lines. After writing 17 Brian was concerned with the preparations for the first performance of the Gothic (not the 1966 Proms performance but the earlier performance, in 1961, conducted by Brian Fairfax), and he may have thought, looking at the score, "Well, I was pretty radical 35 years ago, better ramp it a bit now, don't want to be old-fashioned". Then he wrote 18 as a thank-you to Fairfax and this work is scored for smaller forces than usual, Brian may have thought of it as a divertimento, but once he had written it decided to explore the vein further, and never left the new, more broken up and less sustained melodic writing of his new style.

One further thought, I wonder if 17 isn't another formal joke. It's divided into three movements, a longish opening movement, fast, with slow episodes, a short slow movement and a short finale. However, I've listened to it three or four times, and each time is sounds more like one movement, with the slow movement as a slow episode and the finale as the last recapitulatory stretch.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Thanks, calyptorhynchus, for your Brianic musings! I like your 'formal joke' idea. I personally find a work like 'Das Siegeslied' interesting, too, in that respect. It is in three movements. The first is Maestoso, an allegro movement, with a slow central part. The middle movement, Lento, is a slow movement with a quick central part. And in the final movement, Allegro, you get a, rather sinister, central scherzo section. So the traditional four-movement symphony seems to peek through the three-movement structure in a very intricate way.

[cilgwyn]

I had the original Marco Polo release of Das Siegeslied in a carrier bag,ready to take down the charity shop. I was beginning to come along to John's point of view,after nearly playing my dolby cassette copy of the Poole performance to death,as a teenager! How I loved it then,especially the second movement,with those loud climaxes that almost seemed to outdo their counterparts in the Gothic,in terms of apocalyptic,wall pulverising volume!
  Nevertheless,it survived. I opened the bag & it just seemed to 'jump' into my outstretched hand! As did,Holbrooke's String Quartet's & Templeton Strong's 'Sintram' Symphony,which,even if it's not an American 'Ilya Murometz',(and it ISN'T!) I now find quite interesting,in it's turbulent,uneven way. It could do with a really good tune,though!!!
The Tveitt is going though,as is the Adolphe Biarent & goodness,I have tried with both of them!
  But what the blazes was Villa Lobos's Choros No 11,doing there? Let alone,Holst's 'The Cloud Messenger'?!!! As 'Private Eye' might say,'Shome mistake,ed!' The Villa Lobos is a mind boggling blockbuster. The Cloud Messenger,dismissed,by Imogen Holst. An astonishing piece!
  And Das Siegeslied? Loud it may be,but it has a wierd,sinister atmosphere & even if it's not on the same level of inspiration as Belshazzar's Feast,I can't think of another British quite like it. Lambert's Summers last will & testament,possibly? But,wait a minute......oh dear,that went down to the charity shop!!!!

[Hattoff]

Where IS your charity shop? Seems like they might have some good stuff.

[Sergeant Rock]

Where IS your charity shop? Seems like they might have some good stuff.

Indeed. I'm amazed what he discards. But my questions is: What is a charity shop? Obviously a shop where you can dump things you don't want, and buy things you do, but what exactly is it? An actual charity? Do they pay you directly for your unwanted items or take a commission when they do sell your item?

Sarge

[Hattoff]

Hi Sarge,
Since the demise of town and city shopping centres due to the rise of the out of town shopping malls, the high streets in the UK are full of empty shops/stores. These empty premises have been filled with "charity shops". Anyone in the UK can set up such a shop by obtaining charitable status from the taxman but they must prove that they are doing some sort of social service or have an educational purpose. To fund themselves many charities open shops selling second hand goods, where anyone can donate items for free and the shop assistants are often retired people who donate their services for free. Some more well known examples are Oxfam, the Red Cross and Barnardos (a charity for orphans).
A problem is that the executives of the charity are allowed to cream off expenses which a minority do, to the extent of removing 90% of the income for themselves and only 10% going to their cause. Charities are now big business here in the UK.
The Havergal Brian Society is an educational charity, albeit a very small specialised one with no shops in the high street at all but there would be nothing to stop them opening one if they wished. Can I suggest opening one in Dover? selfishly near me

[cilgwyn]

My experience with one particular charity,which I shall not name,was enough to make me a little dubious,myself. And you only have to look at all the celeb involvement & big company donations,to feel some sympathy for Hattoff's viewpoint......but I had to get to the other side of the room & there are ALLOT of cds here!
  Also,I didn't have any Ken Dodd or Max Bygrave cds,so Biarent,Tveitt & Debussy,had to do.
  Not being a complete idiot,(yet?)I kept the limited editions for myself........and the idea of Richard Strauss & Ildebrando Pizzetti,sandwiched between Bucks Fizz & Max Bygraves,is rather fun! (On second thoughts,I'd rather not think about it! )

I'm taking the family silver down there,later!

[Christo]

....and the idea of Richard Strauss & Ildebrando Pizzetti,sandwiched between Bucks Fizz & Max Bygraves, is rather fun!

Who are these Strauss & Pizetti, one wonders. 

[cilgwyn]

  And at charity shop prices,who knows,Pizzetti,Strauss,Biarent & Tveitt,could make some new 'friends'?
The Marco Polo releases of Cyril Scott & D'indy (Fervaal,etc),York Bowen Preludes (Hyperion) are down there,too!
Knowing my luck,the York Bowen will sell,quicker than you can say Britney Spears!
Incidentally,I like Pizzetti. The cd that got that got 'dumped' was the Naxos 'Concerto dell 'estate'. The Decca Eloquence release is so much better! I actually like that one,now. Marco Polo,beware!!!

NB: Great,now I'll have put everyone off Pizzetti!!!

[cilgwyn]

Just checked the spelling of Pizzetti & the browser gave me Pizza Hut! I can see the connection,though! But whether Pizzetti ever ate Pizza is another matter;but I'd be amazed if he didn't.
Hey,they even sound similar! Pizza & Pizzetti! Amazing!
I wonder which flavour he liked?

Back to Brian!

[John Whitmore]

Oxfam in Oldham is mega. They recently got hold of the BBC Manchester CD library for nothing. I know the chap and he took me into the store room. Solt's Decca Ring - arguably the greatest Decca production of all time - was a steal at 30 quid. Forked out 200 quid in total for some obscure rarities.

[Sergeant Rock]

Hi Sarge, Since the demise of town and city shopping centres.....

Thank you for taking the time to explain. cilgwyn's strange charity comings and goings make some sense now 

Sarge

[hbswebmaster]

Being an inhabitant of the south east like Mr Hattoff, I can confirm that my little seaside town (not far from the famous Shoreham-by-sea) is full to bursting with charity shops. You wouldn't believe the number of 1960s twin-sets we have in the wardrobe...   

Excuse me, I have to get the grand opening of the Havergal Brian Society charity shop in Pratt's Bottom...

[John Whitmore]

Being an inhabitant of the south east like Mr Hattoff, I can confirm that my little seaside town (not far from the famous Shoreham-by-sea) is full to bursting with charity shops. You wouldn't believe the number of 1960s twin-sets we have in the wardrobe...   

Excuse me, I have to get the grand opening of the Havergal Brian Society charity shop in Pratt's Bottom...

Who is Pratt?

[Hattoff]

Thank you for taking the time to explain. cilgwyn's strange charity comings and goings make some sense now 

Sarge

You're very welcome

Who is Pratt?

You should see the rest of him, he's covered in shops. I believe he has a complete chain in one area.

[cilgwyn]

According to the 'official website',Pratts Bottom,a 'village' in the London borough of Bromley,is "often the butt of jokes!"

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

 


A very big one, I'd think.

[calyptorhynchus]

Getting down towards early Brian. Noticed that just as the symphony No.17 is the last one with such sustained melodic lines, No. 7 is the last with melodic lines of conventional length, so you could mark the phases of HB's symphonies as early Gothic - 7, middle 8-17 and late 17 onwards.

What a triology 8-10 are! Listened to them several times over the weekend.

Final thought for now, HB, like all great composers is entirely himself, that is his music doesn't sound like anyone else's. I was wondering if people could suggest some of the few passages of Brian that do sound like other composers. I can think of only a few:

Elgar: a few passages in the earlier symphonies, and, strangely in the very last, 32.
Bruckner: the scherzos of 2 and 7 sound like a little like Bruckner brought up to date (much as Simpson's 4th sounds like Beethoven brought up to date);
Mahler: occasional suggestions of Mahler, eg 7 third movement.
Sibelius: parts of 6, 10 and 12 sound a little like his music
Tippett: some turns of phrase in slower music in the later symphonies are sometimes a little reminiscent of the Tippett of the 1st and 2nd Symphonies.
English Pastoral: some of the music from the English Suites, and bits of various symphonies eg 3, 9, 21, 24, but usually this is in a context where he is about to mock it a few bars later
Walton: Some brassy bits of pomp and circumstance in eg 15 sound a little like Walton, but again, these are rapidly undercut.

Wonder if anyone can add to this list?

[Luke]

Getting down towards early Brian. Noticed that just as the symphony No.17 is the last one with such sustained melodic lines, No. 7 is the last with melodic lines of conventional length, so you could mark the phases of HB's symphonies as early Gothic - 7, middle 8-17 and late 17 onwards.

What a triology 8-10 are! Listened to them several times over the weekend.

Final thought for now, HB, like all great composers is entirely himself, that is his music doesn't sound like anyone else's. I was wondering if people could suggest some of the few passages of Brian that do sound like other composers. I can think of only a few:

Elgar: a few passages in the earlier symphonies, and, strangely in the very last, 32.
Bruckner: the scherzos of 2 and 7 sound like a little like Bruckner brought up to date (much as Simpson's 4th sounds like Beethoven brought up to date);
Mahler: occasional suggestions of Mahler, eg 7 third movement.
Sibelius: parts of 6, 10 and 12 sound a little like his music
Tippett: some turns of phrase in slower music in the later symphonies are sometimes a little reminiscent of the Tippett of the 1st and 2nd Symphonies.
English Pastoral: some of the music from the English Suites, and bits of various symphonies eg 3, 9, 21, 24, but usually this is in a context where he is about to mock it a few bars later
Walton: Some brassy bits of pomp and circumstance in eg 15 sound a little like Walton, but again, these are rapidly undercut.

Wonder if anyone can add to this list?

I'm not sure that 8, 9 and 10 don't also have melodies that are pretty extended. Especially 8, which seems to me to have some of  Brian's most perfectly poised and yet uncharacteristically lengthy melodies. Odd for such a compressed work, one would think the piece would collapse about them, but they work superbly.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

@Luke It's only logical that the extended melodies in No. 8 don't cause the work to fall apart, as its central problem is exactly the opposition aggressively terse vs. lyrically extended, or, perhaps, Power vs. Love...

@calyptorhynchus The opening of No. 10 is very similar to Ravel's Piano Concerto for the Left Hand. The Maestoso outburst in the early phase of No. 16 sounds like the main theme in Roussel's Third (especially in its first and last appearances).