Havergal Brian.

[cilgwyn]

Johan was quite right about the lyricism & moments of repose in these symphonies (well,words to that effect). Symphony No23 has some quite gorgeous,magical textures beginning at approximately 2: 33 into the first movement. The orchestration here is quite stunning;harking back to some of the most beautifully,lyrical passages in,some of the earlier symphonies,such as No's 13,14,and even the 'Sinfonia Tragica'! This is the kind of orchestration that keeps bringing us 'Brianites' back!
And then the martial rhythms return,and that moment of enchantment is over.
Sometimes with Brian it's almost as if there are two whole things going on. Not in an Ivesian sense,but as if a 'curtain' is suddenly pulled back and you see,or rather,hear a glimpse of something going on underneath. Unlike Holbrooke or Scott,Brian was not angry or bitter about his years of neglect. He was philosophical,he didn't need the adulation of critics,at least not at that stage in his life. He enjoyed life,and made the most of it,feeling he had achieved everything he had set out to do,ie compose music! I feel that underneath all the surface tensions,these moments of reflection and lyricism are are,almost like,a glimpse of Brian the man,as opposed to Brian the composer. No pacing up & down writing angry letters like Holbrooke,or tearing his hair out at the musical establisment. Just a nice,comfy armchair,in the evening,and a bit music,or tv,maybe? (By the way,if had one;I wonder what he watched?!!).

Anyway,'theories',and speculations,aside;the passage I have singled out above strikes me as having the elemental quality calyptorhyncus refers to in his earlier post. Although,having said that,there is always something rather elemental about Brian's music at it's best. There's nothing like Tapiola in his output,or any of the Finnish masters hymns to nature;but like a storm,or the earth moving in a quake,it's an unstoppable,unquenchable force. Which is one of the reasons why those moments of reflection and lyricism,when they occur,are so spellbinding!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Nice post, cilgwyn! I have been listening a lot to 'that' CD, too, today. I have to write a review for the upcoming Newsletter of the HBS, so that gives an extra urgency... I have always felt that the 'mask drops off', as it were, in those lyrical passages. I don't see HB sitting in a comfy chair, but I feel that I am looking into his soul. Especially those solos, mostly for violin, that we encounter time and again in his symphonies, are things I really treasure in Brian's music. The bluster is gone, the aggression is far away, and we are with him in silence.

[cilgwyn]

I should point out,the comfy chair I was referring to was an attempt at an analogy with the inner peace of the older Brian,as opposed to Scott & Holbrooke,who seemed to have spent their final years,raging at the establishment for not recognising the value of their music. Brian didn't need critical adulation,or 'success' in the material sense;although early on,I'm sure he would have appreciated a little more than he got. In that respect,I didn't intend the imagery to be taken literally. I just feel that this is a man who was at peace with himself,unlike those previously mentioned. I certainly don't see  Brian sitting in a sofa when I'm listening to the music. I just feel his inner peace! And I can imagine him sitting down in the evening,after all the hard work of composing (although he probably did some then) and reflecting upon the fruits of his labours;maybe running through parts of what he had written,in his head.

On a more spiritual level,and Brian was an aetheist,of course;I love your imagery of Brian's music revealing his inner soul. I find it interesting that,unlike Bax,Brian never seemed to have felt an urge to write an 'autobiography'. Apart from the fact that he just wasn't interested,he probably understood that everything anyone really needed to know about him could be gleaned from listening to his music.

I wonder what he'd thought of this 280 page thread?!!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

We're building our own 'Gothic' here... 


Brian wasn't an atheist. He was an agnostic. An atheist could never have composed the Judex, in which Christ comes to judge the living and the dead, leading to some rather frightening music...

[cilgwyn]

Like my father! Although,I always get the feeling he doesn't think too much of it! Anyway,thank you for clearing up this point.I did wonder? I seem to have read somewhere that he was an atheist. It would seem a bit of a contradiction,particularly when you are composing something of that magnitude! Anyway,too late to go into that sort of thing..........

I should add,there are some great endings on this cd,too. We're always talking about Brian being very good at openings;but the end of No22 is fantastic. I love it! And the bits before it,too!!
I'll have to listen to No's 20,21 & 27,28 again soon,just to recap on what goes on before and after these mini marvels.

[Klaatu]

Cilgwyn:
"Just a nice,comfy armchair,in the evening,and a bit music,or tv,maybe? (By the way,if had one;I wonder what he watched?!!"

Brian did have a TV - he says so in the documentary "The Unknown Warrior" on YouTube. As to what he watched - Malcolm MacDonald remembers him watching the science documentary "The Expanding Universe". Brian referred to himself as a "thinker" and I guess his TV viewing choices would have reflected this.

Concerning Brian's spirituality - according to MacDonald, near the end of his life HB was planning to compose a setting of Psalm 14, "The Fool says in his heart, there is no God."

I find that fascinating. What did that signify?

We will never know, but I will hazard a guess, which, of course, will probably be wrong! But here goes anyway.

I think HB had clearly lost any conventional religious faith. And I think "The Gothic" is where we almost hear it happen. I simply cannot hear that work without thinking it's Brian's reaction to the Great War.

Funeral marches, martial fanfares, passages suggesting lumbering tanks, the xylophone solo which sounds like a macabre dance of skeletons, the overpowering 5th movement with its theme of judgement, the "lah-lah-lah" passage in the final movement - pals' battallions singing as they go off to the front line?

Throughout the "Gothic", choral passages that suggest a long-gone age - the Age of Faith - are continually assaulted by the chaos and nihilism of the modern world.

I think Brian spells it all out in the final pages. The bass intones "Lord, thee have I trusted, let me never be confounded." Then follows the most violent outburst in the whole work, which ends with that quiet "non confundar".

I believe there are two ways to translate "non confundar in aeternum." One is "let me never be confounded", the other is "I shall never be confounded".

My strong feeling is that Brian, in these closing pages, is showing the state of his mind before and after the Great War, and at the end of this mighty musical working-out of a personal philosophy of life. After saying, in effect: "I've trusted you, God, don't let me down", God does let him down. He lets nations slaughter each other on a scale never seen before. And he lets Brian's personal life go pear shaped at the same time.

So that FINAL "non confundar" has a different meaning from its use in the bass's imploring solo. HB is saying, in effect: "I used to trust God. But if he exists, why did he let all this shit happen? Dammit, there's no God, after all - I'm on my own, and the only person I can have faith in, is myself. And I shall never be confounded."

And his very next symphony bears the subtitle, "Man in his cosmic loneliness". Surely that is significant?

But Brian was a thinker all his life. I wouldn't be surprised if his studies of literature and science didn't, near his life's close, bring him to a new understanding of God, quite different from the conventional "religious" one. And hence, perhaps, his intention to set Psalm 14.

But people who come to a such a new understanding of God find it difficult to talk about. I should know - I'm one of these people. You don't talk to atheist friends about it, because for them ANY sort of belief means you're nuts. Neither do you talk to religious friends, because they think you've sold out to Satan.

So what do you do? Keep it to yourself. Change their subject if it's raised. Even tell untruths for the sake of a quiet life. (I've told certain atheist friends that I believe the whole universe is a pointless accident, simply to avoid having to discuss my real beliefs.) Just the sort of reactions, in fact, that Brian gave when he was questioned

So we will never know about HB, but I suspect he was a "seeking agnostic" like myself, rather than an atheist.

Sorry I've been rambling on.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

That's not a ramble, but a very interesting piece of independent thinking. That possible meaning of the Gothic is very plausible... But I'll be responding more fully to your post later today, Klaatu (busy!)

[John Whitmore]

I have it on good authority that HB used to sit in his comfy chair enjoying Match of the Day (when it featured Stoke City), Coronation Street, Terry & June, Jim'll Fix It and It's a Knockout. A man of the people was our Havergal. Stuffy telly wasn't his bag  What he would think of the recent revelations about Savile and Hall I really dread to think. Anyway, I really must get this Naxos CD and give it a whirl. Sounds as if it is worth getting hold of.

[cilgwyn]

I wonder if he watched the wrestling on Saturday,John;like my father (81,now!)?! Thankfully he was too old to ask Jim to fix anything,and Bob Simpson had,anyway,so there!! I must admit,I was hoping Brian was a fan of The Avengers. I can just imagine him sitting there,happily watching Emma Peel beating villains up in a tight black leather catsuit! Oh,well?!

Klaatu,thank you for your response,and the kind of analytical post I can only dream about writing. It all sounds very plausible to me. Which reminds me,I should answer your George Lloyd post. For some reason,Lloyds music doesn't get me rushing off to the pc at strange hours of the morning,to post long rambling posts through eyes,bleary and swollen,with lack of sleep. I don't know why,maybe it should? I have some happy memories of braining my parents with his Seventh at full throttle,though! When I have some spare cash I might even buy a copy! Like Brian he was rediscovered late in life,and his music did arouse a bit of debate a few years ago;so maybe his thread deserves a renewal?

As to Brian? More later!!! This thread is disturbingly short for such an interesting composer!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

There is something about Brian and television in Robert Matthew-Walker's Havergal Brian: Reminiscences and Observations. I'll look it up.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

"On my next visit a week or so later we discussed opera. Brian was full of the live television broadcast a few days before, direct from Rome, of Verdi's 'Otello' which was, I believe, the first such telecast. "Did you see it?" he asked, but I told him I was able only to snatch most of Act I before my fellow-soldiers came in to force me to switch over to 'Take Your Pick' or some other programme. We agreed that Act I was Verdi at his greatest (a view shared by another British composer, George Lloyd, who told me that Verdi's use of the orchestra in this act should be studied by everyone who wanted to become an operatic composer) but Brian much amused me when he reported what Mrs Brian had said.
   Excited by the announcement in Radio Times of this telecast, Brian had settled down in readiness, but as the opera was about to start, Mrs Brian got up and said she was going out. "Why don't you watch this?" Brian asked her. "I don't want to," she said. "But it's a very great masterpiece, and you may not get another chance like this." "I don't care," she replied, "and in any case I don't like opera." With that, she left to go and visit a neighbour, and Brian watched the opera alone. 'I daren't tell her I've got five operas of my own in the cupboard - if she knew that, she'd probably throw them all out to the dustman!"
   I asked him about his operas, and he went through them with me, pointing out that his one-act 'Agamemnon' was a setting in English intended as a curtain-raiser for Richard Strauss's 'Elektra', "To explain what had happened before Elektra begins, you see." His "you see" was very typical of him when he spoke of his own music. As a result of the 'Othello' broadcast I asked him if he watched much television; his answer was unforgettable: "No; television glorifies nobodies."

[cilgwyn]

If he thought television glorified nobodies he should see it now!!
A fascinating and entertaining post,Johan. Well,we wanted to know,didn't we?!! So no Match of the Day,Coronation Street or Wrestling,let alone The Avengers! But maybe Mrs Brian?

Interesting about Mrs Brian's taste. My father has never been interested in music;he prefers reading. My late mother loved music. She even liked Havergal Brian!
Incidentally,Elektra is one of the few Richard Strauss operas I've ever really enjoyed (if that's the right word).
I didn't know Brian was such an admirer of Verdi. Well,writing operas I suppose he would need to know the works of the Italian master.

[Sergeant Rock]

"On my next visit a week or so later we discussed opera. Brian was full of the live television broadcast a few days before, direct from Rome, of Verdi's 'Otello' which was, I believe, the first such telecast.

Johan, when did this conversation take place?

Sarge

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I checked - second half of 1960, Sarge.

[Sergeant Rock]

I checked - second half of 1960, Sarge.

Thanks. A time in his life, then, when he was pumping out three and four symphonies a year. Probably not much time for the telly even if he had been interested in nobodies 

Sarge

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

 

[Sergeant Rock]

So no Match of the Day,Coronation Street or Wrestling,let alone The Avengers!

The interview was in 1960. Mrs. Peel made her appearance in 1965. We can therefore hope, imagine? that Brian was, like most of us, infatuated and seduced also     Afterall, Mrs. Peel could hardly be called a nobody 

Sarge

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

The interview was in 1960. Mrs. Peel made her appearance in 1965. We can therefore hope, imagine? that Brian was, like most of us, infatuated and seduced also     Afterall, Mrs. Peel could hardly be called a nobody 

Sarge

In 1965 Brian wrote two symphonies, 23 and 24 (remember those?) In No. 23 you can see him wrestling, violently, with Emma Peel's appeal. At the end of No. 24, you can see the old man finally succumbing. 

[Sergeant Rock]

In 1965 Brian wrote two symphonies, 23 and 24 (remember those?) In No. 23 you can see him wrestling, violently, with Emma Peel's appeal. At the end of No. 24, you can see the old man finally succumbing. 

So I may have inadvertently discovered the clue that allows us to discern the full meaning of those tough-to-crack symphonies. Cool! 

Sarge

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

"It's a noisy SOB, isn't it?" (Sarge, a few pages ago, about the Naxos CD.) Considering what torment our octogenarian was going through, I think he's still rather restrained.