Havergal Brian.

[John Whitmore]

Almost worth it for the photo alone!

Really good transfer. The CBS sessions are remarkable compared to the old LP.

[calyptorhynchus]

I've never listened intently enough to Elegy before. The other day I was listening to it in the Garry Walker version on Toccata and was very taken with it. I guess that I had always been a bit puzzled by the titles Elegy and Song of Sorrow (original title) and the actual sound of the music (a symphonic movement with some quite loud bits). I then dug out the BBC recording and listened to that and I found I was understanding it a bit more. I now think that the programme for the piece is some sort of reflection on the life of some national figure who has died, and through that person we reflect on the passing of time, historical events, the life of the person and people of the time. Perhaps a sort of In Memoriam II

That interpretation is purely personal and you can take it or leave it, however, I found that I was preferring the BBC version, as with Garry Walker's Reverie from the English Suite No.5, with his Elegy he seems to be hurrying a bit (11" versus 14" BBC). Which lead me to think about tempi in HB.  I noted that in MacDonald's books HB is continually overestimating how long his symphonies will last (i.e. he writes "I have a new symphony of about 25 minutes" and when played it proves to be around 18"). Obviously because HB was composing and writing the music out he experienced it more closely than we do, but perhaps in some cases we might consider that conductors play his music too fast. Perhaps there is a tendency for conductors to see all that percussion and think "Oh, toccata marziale here, better whip through it".

This isn't a plea for Edward Heath type super-slow conducting, but perhaps when more HB recordings are available it will be found that the slower recordings show more facets of the music.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Tempo is always important. In Brian a wrong tempo can ruin a movement or a piece. Elegy is a case in point. So is Reverie. In both cases Walker is simply too fast for the music to unfold all of its meaning. The funeral march in Symphony No. 12 is another case in point. I always liked the 1966 Del Mar performance, I thought the tempo there was right and matched the menacing atmosphere. Until Malcolm MacDonald told me he thought the much slower (earlier) version under Harry Newstone was much better (I think it was Newstone. I do this from memory, sitting in the night train form Amsterdam to Delft). When I listened to that historic recording with MM's recommendation in mind, I had to agree. Yes, the tempo was very slow indeed, but the power was greater, too. Slowness gives you a sense of the past, a sense of time passing; speed gives you more of a here and now. I think slowness suits much of Brian's music best, because you sense historic depth.

[vandermolen]

A re-issue of Symphony 21 is now available at mdt, and a cool picture on the cover too.

Delighted to see this back again. Heritage have revived some fine old British material - Holst, Bax, Bliss amongst them.

On LP this was my first encounter with Havergal Brian. The epic Symphony No 10, with it's culminating sense of grim, hard-won, yet enduring triumph (according to Harold Truscott) was a revelation to me. The recent (excellent) Dutton CD featuring the symphony made me realise what a fine job the young Leicestershire musicians  did, all those years ago. The great front picture is the composer with Robert Simpson outside his council flat in Shoreham, not far from where I work (as reported previously here I was delighted a while back to drive past a bus named 'Havergal Brian' on my way to work). 

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Hi, Jeffrey! Great to learn that you really spotted this fabled bus in the wild!
As for the re-issue - I don't think the second recording of No. 10 beats the first one, either.

[cilgwyn]

If anyone hasn't seen it yet,there appears to be another review of the recent Naxos cd of Havergal Brian symphonies on Musicweb.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Thanks, cilgwyn! Am reading it now...


http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/Oct13/Brian_sys_8572833.htm


Update: good review! The writer doesn't 'get' Brian completely, but enjoys what he can understand.

[John Whitmore]

Thanks, cilgwyn! Am reading it now...


http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/Oct13/Brian_sys_8572833.htm


Update: good review! The writer doesn't 'get' Brian completely, but enjoys what he can understand.

Curt at Klassic Haus will be pleased. Good free advertising for him. 

[cilgwyn]

Just had a look at the footage of the Prom Gothic on Youtube. Of course,this is 'very old news',but I haven't looked at it for quite a while and what a steady hand!! I seem to recall Johan's sister took this. Apart from the steadiness,considering it's difficult enough to hold even a dedicated camcorder that still,at times! I like the professionalism of it. The measured and well thought out taking in of the forces involved. The zooming in and spotlighting of the conductor and performers involved,all very effectively done,considering the circumstances. No fuzzy,whizzing and shaking about. Even the organist gets a shot! Very impressive. You can sit back and enjoy this one! I get the feeling that (Johan's sister? I'll have to look through the posts?) has previous experience with camcorders? As someone who had some aspirations in this field,for a while;I am impressed. And,let's face it,mobile phone/camera phone footage (I don't have one & the basic one I had is currently short of a number!) is (at least to some degree) one of the curses of the modern media as anyone who knows who has had to sit through allot of the wobbly,unwatchable footage that gets on the tv these days!
Let's be thankful that this footage was taken by someone who knew what they were doing! This is is about all we've got;unless someone out there took some and for some reason,hasn't uploaded it? If so,and it's as good as this,I'll be amazed!

Tried to listen to Bruckner's ninth yesterday,after responding to some pro-Bruckner posts at the Art Music Forum (AMF). Couldn't help thinking of John,this forums No1 Bruckner fan! After a few minutes off it went! Phew! And there I was trying to be open minded. With all due respect to Brucknerian's everywhere;this is one area in which I hope very much to close my mind! (Although,I DO quite like the Seventh,for some strange reason?!! ).

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Hi, cilgwyn! My sister had taken a Canon camera with her. Before we boarded in Amsterdam, she bought a battery... If she hadn't done that (taken it along and bought a battery), we wouldn't have the footage... Yes, she has some experience. She's the visual twin, I am the verbal... Thanks for the compliments. I'll pass them on to her!


As for Bruckner - you must have a congenial temperament to appreciate him, it seems. I have never encountered any problems...

[cilgwyn]

Thanks! I remember annoying my parents,when I bought a camcorder about twelve years ago now. Lots of trips and walks with their own personal camera man. Poor them! And allot of footage with the camera whizzing out and back again and zooming in and zooming out. Actually,looking at it now,it's not shakiness that's the problem;but the mistaken belief that lots of  swanky panning and zooming makes a good camera man! Since then the camcorder has stayed in the bag most of the time;although I am planning to replace it with something more impressive and resume my 'film career!'

As to Bruckner. I did go through a phase of listening to allot of Bruckner around the late 80s,courtesy of the local library. Lps then;most of them Karajan box sets. I DO like the Seventh,the Fifth has a wonderful melody in one of the slow movements (if memory serves me correctly) and the ninth is very different. I'll put it on tonight. Of course,I wasn't being entirely serious about the closing my mind bit! I haven't listened to the ninth in a long time and I have an idea I DO like it.

Over at the AMF they are putting up lists of music you can't live without (not sure if that's the exact title?). Brian's third is going to have to be in there and maybe the Second. Then there's No 13? 'The Tigers'.........and the 'Gothic'? As I've said before,not my favourite Brian symphony;and I don't listen to it as much as I used to;but how can I miss out something that made such an impression on me at a such a formulative period of my life?!!
No3 has to be the to choice for me though. It's so engrossing,endlessly fascinating,and there's always something rather mysterious and enigmatic about it. In contrast,the Gothic is more of an open statement. It might be visionary and apocalyptic in scope,but you know exactly what it's about.

The pc,or connection is getting a bit tetchy,so I'm going to have to post this without my usual checking,while the going is good!

[John Whitmore]

BRUCKNER, Give me strength. Have any of you mob bought the Heritage double yet? That's worth some air time on here.

[Mirror Image]

Sarge owns that set as I've seen him listening to it on the 'Listening' thread. Maybe he could chime in here.

[calyptorhynchus]

Well, yes, I have the heritage double set (I buy all HB cd issues, not a habit that's going to bankrupt me).

It's a brilliant piece of work, start with fine performances,then improve the sound enormously.

[Sergeant Rock]

I've had it about a month but haven't gone beyond the first CD. The 10th is so good I just want to keep playing it over and over. I haven't compared it to my Unicorn CD so I can't yet say if there's an improvement in sound.

Sarge

[Klaatu]

I've always thought the LSSO 10th to be a remarkable achievement - the power and mystery of this great score is, IMHO, conveyed far better than in the recent Dutton recording (not that I'm not grateful for the latter).

I remain convinced that it's the 10th Symphony, together with the wonderfully lyrical 6th, that might "make" Brian's reputation as a significant British composer. (The 'Gothic', for all its glories, is a work of such sonic extravagance that it will always struggle for the financial resources to stage it, and will always draw negative reactions from squeamish critics.)

6 and 10 are marvellous works - there is drama and violence, but also episodes of serenely beautiful melody and - most importantly - a real sense of storytelling that is sometimes difficult to apprehend in some of HB's knottier symphonies.

[Mirror Image]

Cross-posted from the 'Purchases' thread:

Also bought some more Havergal Brian as one of my New Year's resolutions is to get a better understanding of this composer's music:





I longed for a better recording of the Violin Concerto as the one on Naxos was insufficient. I'm also considering the 2-CD set on Heritage, which I'll probably just go ahead and post as purchased.



If Johan (J. Z. Herrenberg), who I share many musical affinities with, says this composer is one of his favorites, then I've got to give Brian another go.

What do you Brianites makes of these recordings? I can say I really admire Andrew Penny's conducting, so I look forward to hearing his Brian.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Hi, John!


First off - great that you're diving into Brian again!


The CDs that you have bought contain a lot of very late Brian, and I can predict that you'll have to grapple with those symphonies (20-25). I had, a long time ago. If I can recommend a listening order, I'd say - listen to Symphony No. 10 first. It's epic, mysterious and moving. I'll never forget hearing that opening for the first time. The playing of the LSSO is excellent; the violins can sound a bit rough, but in the final analysis that doesn't matter: the performance is unforgettable and the newer recording (Brabbins) hasn't managed to supersede it (and not only in my opinion).


I'd listen to No. 22, the 'Symphonia Brevis', after that to hear how Brian has changed during the intervening years. It's his shortest symphony, and one of his strongest. If you understand the way it moves and develops, you'll be able to 'get' the even more brutal concision and aggression of its successor. So - I recommend listening to the 'trilogy' 22-24 as a unit. I was never able to do that when I was your age, for the simple fact that only No. 22 had been recorded. But now the whole 'arc' of these three symphonies can be enjoyed. You'll find that 23 is the hardest nut to crack, but that No. 24 makes ample amends by many minutes of sheer lyricism.


After that - 'relax' with the First, Fourth and Fifth English Suites, the Fantastic Variations and The Tinker's Wedding.


Which leaves Symphonies 20 and 25, which won't give you much trouble if you have digested the trilogy of 22-24. No. 20 is quite spacious and lyrical and 25 is rather grim but approachable.


The wonderful Violin Concerto from the 1930s will make an excellent dessert...

[Mirror Image]

Hi, John!


First off - great that you're diving into Brian again!


The CDs that you have bought contain a lot of very late Brian, and I can predict that you'll have to grapple with those symphonies (20-25). I had, a long time ago. If I can recommend a listening order, I'd say - listen to Symphony No. 10 first. It's epic, mysterious and moving. I'll never forget hearing that opening for the first time. The playing of the LSSO is excellent; the violins can sound a bit rough, but in the final analysis that doesn't matter: the performance is unforgettable and the newer recording (Brabbins) hasn't managed to supersede it (and not only in my opinion).


I'd listen to No. 22, the 'Symphonia Brevis', after that to hear how Brian has changed during the intervening years. It's his shortest symphony, and one of his strongest. If you understand the way it moves and develops, you'll be able to 'get' the even more brutal concision and aggression of its successor. So - I recommend listening to the 'trilogy' 22-24 as a unit. I was never able to do that when I was your age, for the simple fact that only No. 22 had been recorded. But now the whole 'arc' of these three symphonies can be enjoyed. You'll find that 23 is the hardest nut to crack, but that No. 24 makes ample amends by many minutes of sheer lyricism.


After that - 'relax' with the First, Fourth and Fifth English Suites, the Fantastic Variations and The Tinker's Wedding.


Which leaves Symphonies 20 and 25, which won't give you much trouble if you have digested the trilogy of 22-24. No. 20 is quite spacious and lyrical and 25 is rather grim but approachable.


The wonderful Violin Concerto from the 1930s will make an excellent dessert...

I appreciate the feedback, Johan! I'm about to dive into Symphonies 11, 15, 17, & 32. I'm thinking of giving the Gothic another listen as well (Brabbins). Of course, I also have a Toccata Classics recording of some lighter fare that will make a nice side dish.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Aha! 11, 15, 17 and 32, eh? Those four are very different from each other. I like them all, but for different reasons. No. 11 is simply beautiful and dreamlike. No. 15 ceremonial (its bombast is not to be taken wholly seriously). No. 17 is the even more mysterious sister of No. 16 - I love it. And No. 32 ends the whole canon in a very classical way, but on Brian's terms...


As for the Gothic...


Happy listening! And report back!