Havergal Brian.

[jon rady]

I can't stick two notes together, and I cant play any instruments.  But I don't hear any amateurishness in the music generally. Well it works for me.  But yes who am I to say, given my complete lack of any knowledge.  But I find it hard to believe that a composer who was apparently quite  competent in the 1920's and 30's (such as in The Tigers as even Andrew Clements acknowledges), just got useless at wring for the individual instruments or the orchestra as a whole, later in his career.  Or maybe he did not care by then, not expecting anyone to actually perform anything?  More our loss than his.  Nielsen by the way - well I just love him, but I have read that some of his music stretches what is possible to the limits

[Augustus]

I just don't recognise the description of Brian's scoring as in some way substandard, as put forward by John Whitmore.  The more we have good performances and recordings of the later works, the more "right" Brian sounds to me.  There isn't a moment in the new Naxos 28, for instance, where I don't think that the glittering, crystalline orchestration is perfect to express the sort of dogged, rugged thematic material he wanted to convey.  As Jon Rady says, Brian showed quite well in his early years that he had a fine ear for orchestral effects.  I am quite happy to accept he wanted the later music to sound as it does, and it works perfectly for me.  It's not an easy sound to get into on first acquaintance but the rewards of listening just keep growing every time I put one on, which to me is one of the marks of a great composer.  I don't think I could ever get tired of listening to this music.

[Sergeant Rock]

I can't stick two notes together, and I cant play any instruments.  But I don't hear any amateurishness in the music generally. Well it works for me.

Jon, just remember that John doesn't like Havergal Brian's music. John's done yeoman service helping get some great Brian performances to CD (I prefer the Klassic Haus "Wine of Summer" to the new Dutton, for example), and should be thanked for that. But still, he is no fan of Brian's music and most of us do not agree with his criticism of Brian's talent.

Sarge

[cilgwyn]

I actually do agree with some of John's observations about Brian's music,do enjoy reading his posts,but still love virtually everything Havergal Brian ever composed,believe it or not! Also,as far as I know John actually does enjoy some of his music. The Tenth (well,hopefully! ) and the third symphony,in particular,I believe?! I seem to recall he said he actually loved that one!

[cilgwyn]

Over to you,John!

[calyptorhynchus]

I few pages ago on this thread I had a bit of a rant about what happened to my favourite download site www.classicsonline.com run by Naxos. It was my favourite because it was the most reasonably priced download service for someone in Australia. For example a Naxos CD cost $6.99 (US) to download, most other CDs were $9.99 (US). Compare this to Prestoclassical where the avergae album is $12.95 (US) and iTunes ($16.00 (US)).

Well it has closed down and been replaced with a new site HDclassics or some such offering streaming and downloading services. They assure the user you can still download MP3s, so I tried to only to discover the price had gone up to $10.99 for a Naxos Disk, $12.95 for other albums. I wrote to them and asked what had ahppeend to the MP3s and they wrote back saying we are offering you a better service, all formats the same price, streaming service, keep it in your cloud &c.

I replied that if they had halved their prices they would be offering me a better service, but to increase them by 50% can hardly be described as offering better service.

Anyway, just wanted to let people know what had happened in case they used the old classicsonline site.

[John Whitmore]

Over to you,John!

I do like some of Brian's music. The 10th the 22nd and the 3rd symphonies for example. It's just that I don't rate it especially highly and certainly not as highly as many people on this board do. He's just one of several English composers who were nearly men. There are too many of those to mention here. Sorry, but that's my opinion. Brian has been part of my life since 1972 and I've also devoted quite a lot of time to the HB cause. I tracked down the lost LSSO tapes, helped to save them from obscurity and wrote the booklet notes for the Heritage double CD. I also restored the Cameo piano music CD for David Kent Watson and there are a few titles I've worked on with Klassic Haus as well from the infamous Aries catalogue. Would I have done any of this time consuming and unpaid work if I actually disliked Brian's music? Well, I'm not totally mad so that probably gives you a clue to the answer. Did I do the work because I thought he was some neglected genius? Certainly not. I just wanted to restore some old recordings back into the catalogue, it's as simple as that. HB has some good ideas and some memorable moments along the way but I find the music to be too structurally wayward and undisciplined for my own personal taste (and it is personal isn't it?). Please read my MusicWeb review of the Tigers orchestral music on Heritage. There's nothing destructive or unfair about that. Ditto my review on the LSSO CDs (a slight bias, maybe, seeing as I played for the orchestra). I've also written articles for the Brian newsletter. I am, indeed, a fan rather than a fanatic. He wasn't the Messiah, he was just a very naughty boy. Please remember that Bob Simpson himself said that much of Brian's writing was crude and rough as a bear's backside - now there's a Brian/Nielsen champion and master composer talking. He knew there were issues and he made them very clear. It's those issues that I find difficult to overcome. There's just a lack of polish and craftsmanship about his work that irritates me - others see this as one of his strengths. Rough is good. Remember also the orchestral players views in that pre-Proms Gothic talk. Again, comments about the amateurish writing. I also find the scores too thick and contrapuntal. Too many notes. Too many inner parts that struggle to get through. Had the bloke had a chance to hear his music more often I truly believe that he would have heard the problems and done something about it. A sort of "Havergal Brian Lite" would have evolved and lifted the veil. Putting all this to one side I accept that some people love his music, warts and all. I'm not one of them. I listen to his work and think "if only". Eric Pinkett once told us that Brian was neglected because composers such as Elgar, Vaughan Williams and Britten were around at the same time. Hmm. So Leicester City would be top of the Premier league had it not been for Arsenal, Man Utd, Man City and another 15 teams being around at the same time. Peculiar logic. Brian does have a place in my affections. There is something magnetic about his story.There's something magnetic about some of his music. Does that put him in the master composer bracket? For me - not a chance in hell. Next contestant please..... 

[John Whitmore]

Jon, just remember that John doesn't like Havergal Brian's music. John's done yeoman service helping get some great Brian performances to CD (I prefer the Klassic Haus "Wine of Summer" to the new Dutton, for example), and should be thanked for that. But still, he is no fan of Brian's music and most of us do not agree with his criticism of Brian's talent.

Sarge

Any more posts like this Sarge and I will strip you of your stripes and reduce you to the rank of corporal. If you fail to heed this warning then you will quickly become a private. 

[John Whitmore]

I actually do agree with some of John's observations about Brian's music,do enjoy reading his posts,but still love virtually everything Havergal Brian ever composed,believe it or not! Also,as far as I know John actually does enjoy some of his music. The Tenth (well,hopefully! ) and the third symphony,in particular,I believe?! I seem to recall he said he actually loved that one!

As you already know, Cilgwyn,  I'm more of a Das Siegeslied man myself. A masterpiece. Just for Jon's benefit - you might like to think about downloading the 7 Klassic Haus titles at $5 a go. The sound varies from excellent to iffy (never bad) but they are good vinyl restorations, high quality MP3s and a worthy addition to any HB collection. Even mine.  Our Dutch agent Herrenberg wrote the CD sleeve notes. Don't buy the CDs because the Post Office will clobber you with ridiculous import fees.The 3rd is spectacular and the violin concerto is, actually, a very good piece. Honestly. The Ralph Holmes version is still a very good listen (what a great fiddle player he was). This link takes you to the version of Wine of Summer that Sarge (soon to be corporal) enjoys. You will find the others under the "Collaborations"  HB tab. Click the sleeve picture to hear samples.
http://klassichaus.us/Brian%3A-Symphony-Nos--4--and--5.php

[Karl Henning]

Over to you,John!

There is always a place for The Loyal Opposition.

(Which is not at all the same as Pffffttttt . . . .)

[Karl Henning]

I do like some of Brian's music . . . It's just that I don't rate it especially highly and certainly not as highly as many people on this board do.

Well, this is no great distance from my own perspective.

[cilgwyn]

Everyone knows Brian's greatest masterpiece is really the Jolly Miller Comedy Overture! Although,strangely enough,apart from his piano music,it's the only music Brian composed that I don't like!
Any Jolly Miller Overture fans out there;now is your chance to defend your favourite Brian composition!!

[calyptorhynchus]

Please remember that Bob Simpson himself said that much of Brian's writing was crude and rough as a bear's backside - now there's a Brian/Nielsen champion and master composer talking. He knew there were issues and he made them very clear.

I'm pretty sure he said some of Brian's writing was crude and rough as a bear's backside. The quote is somewhere in MacDonald's volumes but the index is no help, Simpson is mentioned on almost every page. I'll have to have a longer look when I have time.

[Karl Henning]

I'm pretty sure he said some of Brian's writing was crude and rough as a bear's backside.

And it's a rare man who will own in public that he knows a bear's backside so well.

[cilgwyn]

He could have had a teddy bear,of course?!!

[calyptorhynchus]

Not quite the same quote, but another one by Robert Simpson about Brian: 'I still think he is a very uneven composer. Some of his music I think is really bad, terrible. But at his best he's got tremendous originality...'
Quoted on p.60 of The power of Robert Simpson, A biography by Donald Macauley.

[John Whitmore]

Not quite the same quote, but another one by Robert Simpson about Brian: 'I still think he is a very uneven composer. Some of his music I think is really bad, terrible. But at his best he's got tremendous originality...'
Quoted on p.60 of The power of Robert Simpson, A biography by Donald Macauley.

A fair and balanced assessment I feel.

[cilgwyn]

Again,I don't really have a problem with John's assessment. I also tend to agree with allot of what he says;although,unlike John,I still enjoy most of Brian's music. Of course,John is a musician,so I can't really argue with him,anyway! That said,he doesn't just dismiss the music out of hand;he explains the problems he perceives in detail and they do seem to correspond with and articulate the misgivings I have about Brian's music. I don't think this belittles Brian's achievement in anyway. In fact,in a way,it enhances it. A man from his background,teaching himself to compose symphonies and operas,including the most colossal symphony ever composed. Not many people can do that. Also,just because his music had all kinds of technical shortcomings (or whatever you call them?) doesn't detract from the fact that the man had a richly stocked imagination,allot of good ideas,in between the chaff,and an individual voice all of his own. I find his music strangely compulsive,anyway;and there is just something fascinating about his life and the man himself. I can think of other neglected British composers who could make fascinating material for a biographer,other than Brian. Cyril Scott with his Occult and New Age philosophy (look at all the wierd books that man wrote,listed on Amazon!) and Joseph Holbrooke,who was obsessed with Edgar Allan Poe,knew all kinds of extraordinary characters and was indeed an extremely colourful (if rather repellant) character himself! They also composed allot of hugely ambitious music. Nevertheless, despite a minor flurry of interest in recent years,I don't see many posts on music forums or hundreds of tickets sold out for concerts of Holbrooke's Apollo and the Seaman or Scott's Piano Concerto or third Symphony at Promenade Concerts! A pity,really. I quite like Holbrooke at his best and I would be very curious to hear Apollo and the Seaman and I think the two named works by Scott woud make a fantastic Prom! But there is something about Brian that captures peoples imagination more than allot of other composers who are considered to be of the second or third division.
As to me? I love his music,even if it has technical shortcomings. Except for the Jolly Miller Overture and the Piano music;and possibly,For Valour. Elgar,Walton and Bliss did that so much better!
Funnily enough I'm listening to Rued Langgaard now,whio is often regarded as a sort of Danish equivalent. I suppose you could pick his music apart if you wanted to.And people certainly have! The opera Antikrist for example;shouldn't really work at all,but,Wow!! What an extraordinary piece of music!

I remember writing to Gwydion Brooke some years ago in response to some music I had heard by his Father ,Joseph Holbrooke. I remember discussing the neglect of the Bax symphonies in my letter. In his reply,which included a free Lp of his Father's music,Gwydion Brooke told me that I was lucky I wasn't a musician in a way,because I could enjoy listening to a piece of music without worrying about it's technical shortcomings. Of course,he could have just been being polite,but it was an interesting point,and it helped make me feel a bit better about the fact that I didn't really know that much about music....at least from a technical point of view. Either way,I was dead chuffed to receive the letter. He was one of Beecham's famous 'Royals' and recorded some very famous performances. I've still got the letter and the Lp....but no record player!

[Karl Henning]

Again,I don't really have a problem with John's assessment. I also tend to agree with allot of what he says;although,unlike John,I still enjoy most of Brian's music.

Nothing wrong with that, of course;  lots of room in the Arts for our agreeing on facts, and yet disagreeing as to their significance or interpretation.

[calyptorhynchus]

Today I was compiling a Discography of Havergal Brian Works (as you do) and it was looking very good, in that almost all the symphonies have modern recordings (except 14 and 26), and we have recordings of so many of the other works.

However, I am not quite sure of the status of the EMI double disk. This is the one with recordings by Mackerras and Groves of symphonies 7, 8, 9, 31 and the Tinker's Wedding. None of the usual sources are showing this as available. Amazon copies which are described as 'new and used', but I think that 'new' on Amazon just means 'unopened'.

We have Klassihaus restorations of the Fredman 8 & 9 (originally BBC recordings) and 31 i son the new Naxos, but the symphony we don't have another recording of is 7, which is considered one of his best.....